Why Do I Feel Guilty Saying No? Breaking the People-Pleasing Cycle with Dr. Lorea Martínez Pérez | Part 2
[00:00:00] Grace: Previously, on Empowering Women in Conversations: Dr. Lorea Martinez-Perez shared her own burnout story and introduced the HEART Model for emotional intelligence.
[00:00:09] Lorea Martinez: What if that happens? Let's go there, right? I love it. Just imagine it. let's have that, ... Let's imagine that scenario. What if everything drops?
[00:00:20] Grace: Now, in Part 2, we’re going deeper—into boundary guilt, saying no, and why people-pleasers feel responsible for everyone else’s emotions.
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[00:01:18] Anita Sandoval LPC: The chill pause. Can you explain how it helps create space between stress and our reaction?
[00:01:25] Lorea Martinez: So the chill pause, truly helps to bring A little bit of like breather space, I would say-
[00:01:33] Anita Sandoval LPC: Okay ...
[00:01:33] Lorea Martinez: into the experience. So emotions are, if you are in a situation where your emotions are heightened and you are feeling it in your body, they are increasing, but maybe you are not able to get out of that situation in the moment.
[00:01:48] Sometimes we, move outside of the situation to calm down, but sometimes you are not able to do that, and you need to regulate your emotions in the moment. Taking that chill pause can be, very [00:02:00] helpful. And what you do is you try to, bring into the scenario, your rational brain.
[00:02:06] And the way that we do that, we can, for example, count to 10 but backwards. Mm. We can, try to remember what we ate for breakfast, or if you know a second language, just try to name colors in that second language. Mm. Something that is gonna bring the prefrontal cortex, that's what we are trying to do, bring it into the, the scenario to play with us instead of, maybe doing something else that can heighten our emotion.
[00:02:37] So if you are thinking, "Wow, this person is so annoying. They are very upsetting. Why are they saying this in the meeting?" Your thought process can increase your emotions, has an impact on your emotions. So when we take that chill pause, what we are doing is saying, "Okay, let me bring me right here. I'm right here.
[00:02:57] Just bring me back. Okay. Yes, I [00:03:00] can count to 10 in French. Okay, I'm gonna try to do it. Oh, this is hard. I can't remember what's number eight," right? Yeah. So as you are doing that, you are letting the emotion, run its process in the body, and normally that lasts, 90 seconds according to research.
[00:03:16] And if you let that go, the emotion ran its course, so it won't be going back. Like, y- the level of the emotional temperature in your body will decrease, and then you are able to- make a comment in the meeting or, tell someone something in a much more, constructive way than before you took that chill pause.
[00:03:37] Anita Sandoval LPC: Ooh, I love how you said that. I, every time I hear chill pause, my husband had boughten a while back, I don't think we have, we have it somewhere, but it was a silicone ice tray that was chill pill. Mm-hmm. Isn't that funny? So you put water in it, and then when it's ice, you g- it looks like a little pill in the middle, and it says, "Chill pill.
[00:03:55] Here, take some chill pills." Oh, be quiet. Yes. I'm just [00:04:00] like, oh my gosh, that's too funny. but anything, hey, ice is so good to put on your chest. It helps calm the system as well, yes. And it's just regulating. For someone who's used to immediately fixing, helping, caregiving, saying yes, even that brief pause, 'cause they have this need to quickly respond yes all the time, that brief pause can feel uncomfortable.
[00:04:23] It may even bring up, guilt or fear or shame, disappointing someone. How can constantly caring for other people disconnect us from our own emotional needs?
[00:04:36] Lorea Martinez: , it's very common. And that's why all of these tools that we teach are practices, meaning- Yeah ... they are helping us to develop new behaviors in our lives, particularly for those scenarios and those situations where what we are doing is actually not helping us.
[00:04:58] Anita Sandoval LPC: Okay.
[00:04:59] Lorea Martinez: So [00:05:00] for, - particularly women who are, like, constantly taking care of other people, I think that idea of, hey, include yourself in that circle of care-
[00:05:11] Anita Sandoval LPC: Okay ...
[00:05:11] Lorea Martinez: can be very helpful as a mental model to say, "Oh, can I say yes to this commitment? Someone is asking me to do that, extra thing.
[00:05:20] Can I put that on my plate?" And to do it also from a place of confidence and say, "Oh, I, actually, this doesn't work for me, because I am including myself in that circle of care, and I can see that if I go and I say yes to this situation, you can imagine, how am I gonna be feeling at the end? I'm gonna be exhausted.
[00:05:42] I'm gonna feel overwhelmed. I'm gonna feel maybe even upset at myself becau- because I said yes." So if , that part is so big- Maybe you see that the answer should be no instead of yes, right? Almost imagining how would you be at the [00:06:00] end of that situation, and if you are experiencing all those, very uncomfortable emotions, and you are not gonna be happy, and it's not gonna fill your bucket, why are you putting yourself through that?
[00:06:11] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm, yes. It's like putting yourself in that circle of care so that way you don't disconnect from that. Yes. And that'll help. Wow.
[00:06:21] Lorea Martinez: Yes ...
[00:06:21] Anita Sandoval LPC: A lot of women experience guilt- Mm-hmm ... when setting boundaries. Why is it that they experience this feeling of guilt even though those boundaries are necessary and healthy?
[00:06:34] Lorea Martinez: So guilt is a very interesting emotion, and I actually wrote a little bit about it in my book because- Mm ... I, I, moved to the United States from Spain when I was 25, and for the longest time I felt very guilty because I had left my family back home. And guilt, I thought it was because I was feeling like I was a bad [00:07:00] person.
[00:07:00] I, I made my parents suffer. They miss me. I miss being back home. but what I realized, and I did a little bit of research on this, is that guilt actually, is an indicator of- what you care about, how much you love that thing. So in my case, that emotion helped me to stay very connected to my family.
[00:07:25] So I call home often. I made sure that I travel every time I could to go back home and visit, when my kids were born, to really keep that connection with my parents so they could see them grow up. And that guilt really helped me to keep that relationship very connected and very close, even if I wasn't there physically all the time.
[00:07:52] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:07:52] Lorea Martinez: So we think about guilt as, "Oh, I feel guilty because I'm a bad person," right? We, Mm-hmm ... put it in the same [00:08:00] category, but actually- Yeah ... guilt is showing you, oh, there's something that you really care about- Mm-hmm ... that maybe there's a blockage or there's something that doesn't make you be able to show up in the ways that you would like.
[00:08:11] And just naming that-
[00:08:13] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah ...
[00:08:13] Lorea Martinez: and being able to say, "Wow, I really care about, the wellbeing of, others," but maybe in a situation you cannot put it on yourself. But just naming, "Oh, I really care about you- Yeah ... but I'm not able to help you in the ways that you need right now," right? It's like we are not responsible for other people's emotions, and that's- Yeah
[00:08:35] something that is very hard to, acknowledge and to live it. Because, of course, we all want our people, around us to be happy and be well, but we cannot put their happiness on our shoulders, 'cause that's not our responsibility. That's an inside job, right? Yeah. Everybody needs to be on their own journey, and we can be helpful in ways and be that positive [00:09:00] presence in people's lives- Yeah
[00:09:01] but we cannot be responsible for everybody's emotions.
[00:09:05] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, that would definitely put us in the brink of burnout instantly. And I love what you said about guilt, where you said, "You know what? We use the guilt in a positive way. We set the boundaries, use that guilt in going, okay, what can I negotiate to- Mm-hmm
[00:09:21] further align with my value? So that way I know that I'm still living true to taking care of me, but also living true to the value and not being responsible for that other person's emotions if they feel any certain of negative emotions or their reactions for said boundary to."
[00:09:43] Lorea Martinez: Yes. And I think that the, the other part around developing all of these skills in for, especially for women who avoid-
[00:09:53] yeah. The, people pleasers tend to avoid the conflict- Yes ... or avoid being in an uncomfortable [00:10:00] situation. Yeah. What it does is when we honor our emotions, we expand our window of tolerance. Mm-hmm. So imagine that we all have a different- Yeah ... window of tolerance for certain emotions.
[00:10:11] and maybe, w- I'm trying to think of an example. Maybe anger is one that can help us here. So if you are able to experience that anger and still feel very in control of your behavior, that means that situations that will make you angry, you are not searching for them, but when that happens, you can still feel in control of your reactions because you are getting to know that anger, right?
[00:10:40] You are sitting with that anger. You can name it. You can interpret it or, and, it's a blockage, yeah. Anger is an emotion that shows that you are not able to meet your needs, and there's a blockage, right? Yeah. So when you see anger as having a purpose, it can be very motivating because you know that, [00:11:00] oh, that's a signal that something is getting on your way.
[00:11:03] If you can name it, you have a lot more information and- Yeah ... and power to do something about it. So as you practice these skills, that window of tolerance increases, and you have more resources to go back to that, calm, neutral space that is where we should be functioning, all day. But guess what?
[00:11:22] The life doesn't work that way, and we go up and down, right? We go in, in different levels. We ... I think about it as a, a, stoplight.
[00:11:30] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:11:30] Lorea Martinez: So if you are in the green, you are good. You are feeling calm. You are feeling control. We're good. If you are in the yellow, that means "Hey, proceed with caution," means there's something bubbling.
[00:11:42] Maybe you are not feeling out of control, but there's something going on there, right? There's something bothering you. If you are in the red, stop.
[00:11:51] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:11:51] Lorea Martinez: Right? Take the pause. Don't write that email back, right? Maybe move away from the situation if you can. Retake that [00:12:00] conversation later.
[00:12:01] Don't say yes right away. Maybe wait until you consider all the pros and cons, all of those things that you can do to get you. Yeah. And then, so going back to this idea of window of tolerance, we go back to the green because we are able to manage with a lot more tools our emotional experience. And the green doesn't mean, oh, we don't experience unpleasant emotions.
[00:12:25] What it means is we are able to be with it- And sit with it in, from a place of, grounding and feeling that you can handle the situation. You are in control.
[00:12:38] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, I wanna remember, everybody remember that, especially those that have either toddlers or teenagers, 'cause there really isn't much difference between them.
[00:12:47] What mood are they in today? And then we're just gonna have to take a step back and be like, "Okay, I need to just, ground myself," 'cause you never know the mood they're gonna be in., What would you say to the woman who [00:13:00] believes, if I slow down, say no, or stop taking care of everything, I'm going to disappoint everyone or it's all going to fall apart?
[00:13:10] Lorea Martinez: What if that happens? Let's go there, right? I love it. Just imagine it. let's have that, ... Let's imagine that scenario. What if everything drops?
[00:13:24] Anita Sandoval LPC: Wow, man. That was, like, window of tolerance moment for that person. Everything drops. Someone doesn't have their lunch prepared. the other kid can't find their shoe.
[00:13:37] everybody's going, "Mom, Mom, you're supposed to..." Oh, what then?
[00:13:43] Lorea Martinez: Yes.
[00:13:44] Anita Sandoval LPC: Wow.
[00:13:45] Lorea Martinez: . and some things, they are a bigger deal in our head- Yeah ... than in reality.
[00:13:49] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:13:50] Lorea Martinez: And if, that kid goes to school without the lunch because maybe it was their responsibility and you are behind, trying to fix it for them-
[00:13:59] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah
[00:13:59] Lorea Martinez: they [00:14:00] might learn the lesson. . They don't go hungry nowadays, but, they'll find a way to, to fix the problem by themselves, and that teaches autonomy. It teaches, to be less dependent on you, right?
[00:14:12] Anita Sandoval LPC: Right.
[00:14:12] Lorea Martinez: but I think that just even playing with the idea of what if someone is disappointed at me, but I'm, I included myself in that circle of care.
[00:14:21] Anita Sandoval LPC: You know, something else that I also notice in women, people pleasers, or just people pleasers in general, it's like they're so much to be needed, they get addicted to that. I need to be of service in order to matter. Then discussing the transition of what happens when they don't need you anymore, and then that un- uncomfortable feelings arise.
[00:14:44] What would you tell that person?
[00:14:47] Lorea Martinez: Yes. I would say that comes from, unmet needs, right? Maybe there's a need there that has not- Mm-hmm ... been met, and being able to identify that. So where is that coming from? Yeah. What is that need [00:15:00] that it's not being fulfilled for you?
[00:15:02] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:02] Lorea Martinez: Or what are you afraid of?
[00:15:04] I think that's also a very good question, like sitting with what are you afraid of. So when you are imagining that scenario, just saying, "Oh, what is it you are losing?" And I think then you can almost move out of the, the busyness side of things and really go deeper. It's like, what's sitting underneath all of that?
[00:15:23] Mm. So you can have some answers. And, it's okay to sometimes feel, sit with that uncertainty, we live in a society where we are asked to react constantly. Yeah. So we are becoming reactive because that's what, our work lives, our personal lives, family lives- Yeah ... with everything that is happening, you are on the go all the time.
[00:15:47] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:15:47] Lorea Martinez: But it doesn't need to be that way, right? It's how do we get- Into the driver's seat of our own life-
[00:15:55] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah ...
[00:15:55] Lorea Martinez: instead of letting everything else and everybody else run our life.
[00:15:59] Anita Sandoval LPC: [00:16:00] Okay, so the common misconception, b- you tell me here, with burnout is I'm doing so much and I can't do it all.
[00:16:07] Mm-hmm. But what if someone- miracle, milagro, right? We have our to-do list that day, and we accomplish everything, but yet we still feel disconnected and empty within ourselves. Why is that?
[00:16:26] Lorea Martinez: One of the, kind of the, the side effects of burnout is the depersonalization. Okay. you become almost, cynical about other people, about your own work.
[00:16:41] you lose, a sense of agency and efficacy. even when- Yeah ... you are accomplishing everything, you don't feel like it's enough, or you don't feel like, it's, it's meaningful. I remember when I was, in the peak of burnout, I, the social [00:17:00] comparison was very damaging for me. I would look at colleagues and be like, "Oh, I, why am I not doing that?
[00:17:07] Or why am I not-" Mm-hmm ... "accomplishing that?"
[00:17:10] Anita Sandoval LPC: horrible. Yes, comparison ...
[00:17:11] Lorea Martinez: it is , it, it will kill your joy- Mm-hmm ... that social comparison with, people that you think should be at your whatever level is, right? it's so silly, but I felt like that was killing some of the, my motivation.
[00:17:26] Yeah. And also, I was not giving myself credit for everything that I had done. Mm-hmm. And that's the piece where why it forces us to continue moving forward because I think subconsciously we think, "Oh, if I need to accomplish more, so I need to keep going," mm-hmm. Where at the root of that, it's not that you haven't accomplished anything, it's that you are not valuing-
[00:17:51] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm
[00:17:52] Lorea Martinez: what you have done. And I think that, that's why taking that pause and really seeing is like, where is the evidence that you haven't [00:18:00] accomplished anything? Is that actually true, or is that, a, an imagination or in your mind you are thinking that, but find the evidence," right? I think that's also a very powerful question in terms of if you are sitting with a situation and you are trying to figure it out, how do I get out of this?
[00:18:18] It's like, what is the evidence of what you are thinking, right? And they say, don't believe everything you think." I think that's such a great-
[00:18:24] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, oh, yeah. Definitely. Your mind is gonna BS you so bad 'cause it loves you to a default. Listen to your body. Your body will tell you the truth even if it's, the awfullest truth ever, but it's gonna tell you.
[00:18:40] And your mind, te va a lavar el coco. It's gonna brainwash you. Don't listen. it, it loves you to a default. Be like- You're great. Yeah. one of those celebrities, you have a lot of money, they'll tell you what you wanna hear.
[00:18:50] Lorea Martinez: That's right.
[00:18:51] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. Yes. even going back, you said, valuing what you've done, and, also using that [00:19:00] self-compassion of what you have done.
[00:19:03] Lorea Martinez: Yes.
[00:19:03] Anita Sandoval LPC: And being intentional and using that with that value. Wow.
[00:19:07] Lorea Martinez: Yes, and I think that when you are in that place, you can say, "Oh, is there something else that I wanna accomplish?" "Do I have any goals?"
[00:19:16] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:16] Lorea Martinez: And if you do ask that question from that place of self-compassion and recognition-
[00:19:22] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah
[00:19:23] Lorea Martinez: you might say, "Oh, no, I have done enough. what else do I need to do?" Or you might say, "Oh, I still have this goal," but then you can be very intentional about working towards accomplishing this goal instead of having this almost, nebulous idea or, not clear idea of what, where you are going, and that's why you are plowing in the field, just trying to go as fast as you can moving forward and not really having clarity about where you are going.
[00:19:52] Anita Sandoval LPC: , let's talk about that, the not knowing the purpose. Mm-hmm. How can someone reconnect with purpose without quitting their job, [00:20:00] leaving their relationships, or just completely starting life over? How can they reconnect with that purpose?
[00:20:06] Lorea Martinez: So one thing is, we always start with the self, right?
[00:20:09] Mm-hmm. Is recognizing what are your passions, what are your interests, what are the ways in which you want to contribute to the world. Yeah. And what's important to you, right? Purpose is always connected to something that is important to you. Yeah. And this is a very, freeing space because it cannot be something that your parents told you that you needed to do.
[00:20:31] It cannot be something that, maybe your, work environment is telling you that you need to do. It needs to really come from yourself, and recognizing that value. And then connecting to the outside, what are the problems outside of you that you would like to solve, that you would like to help,
[00:20:50] in which ways you are wanting to contribute to society. And there, your purpose sits between the two, yeah. And in the book, [00:21:00] I... This is like a, a circle, you go from the inside circle- Yeah ... to the outside circle. And purpose lives somewhere in between. Mm-hmm. So connecting with those two aspects.
[00:21:12] And knowing that, as I said earlier, purpose, you might think, and you might be living your purpose, but know that because we change over time, you need to revisit that purpose-
[00:21:25] Anita Sandoval LPC: Okay ...
[00:21:26] Lorea Martinez: throughout your lifetime. So it can be, scary to think about "Oh, I've been living my purpose, and suddenly it's not working for me."
[00:21:35] That is completely normal. That's what I went through th- going through my own burnout. And part of the reason that I burn out is because I started to feel disconnected with my sense of purpose. Mm-hmm. So I had to revisit that and see what was there. There was a, a misalignment. So part of the, the goal of rekindling, in a way, your purpose, is to [00:22:00] find that alignment where you are making choices that-
[00:22:03] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah
[00:22:03] Lorea Martinez: are in harmony with what you want to do.
[00:22:06] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, yes. And just being intentional and keeping up with what your purpose, what you value, is what you believe in. Mm-hmm. Not just neglecting yourself, but always including you in that circle, as you mentioned previously. Yes. And I want to make this practical for the women who are listening, who may just realize right now, "Oh my gosh, I'm living on autopilot."
[00:22:26] What is one heart practice that someone can begin using today to move out of survival mode?
[00:22:33] Lorea Martinez: Probably the, the place that has had the greatest results for me personally has been with self-compassion.
[00:22:44] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm.
[00:22:44] Lorea Martinez: Because when you acknowledge, "Oh, things are off, and I cannot keep going like this," when you take that moment to name it,
[00:22:56] And you can name it in different ways. You can journal, right? [00:23:00] That's a very helpful practice, if you can write about it. There's no judgment. You can just be open with yourself. you can do a mindfulness practice. There are many tools in order to open up about your own struggle But taking that moment to recognize, "Hey, things are off.
[00:23:18] Let me take that moment to really sit with it and acknowledge it," that's a place that can, can be scary at first. Because normally if we are avoiding that, it's because we know there's something big that we need to name, and that's okay, right? it is... fear is a normal emotion that tries to protect us.
[00:23:39] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.
[00:23:39] Lorea Martinez: and we can still move with courage, we can still acknowledge that fear and say, "I'm still gonna sit with it a little bit to see what's there," because if you don't, I think that that's when, burnout becomes so real and you suddenly wake up one day and you're like, "Wow, I'm not satisfied- Yeah
[00:23:58] with myself, with my [00:24:00] life," and you don't wanna go- get to that point. can you do something before you get to that point of exhaustion?
[00:24:06] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes. Thank you so much for sharing that tip. Lorea, you have shared so much to our listeners, so they can begin start thinking and practicing from a place of self-compassion and emotional intelligence awareness.
[00:24:19] For the woman who wants to continue learning from you, I wanna make sure they know where to find you. Where can our listeners connect with you, learn about your work, your, find your book, Living with the Heart in Mind?
[00:24:32] Lorea Martinez: Yes. They can go to my website. It's loreamartinez.com, and they can find information about the book.
[00:24:40] I also have a self-assessment, that you can take and see how are you practicing all these skills, and you get a report with all your data, and that can be a great starting point to get you going.
[00:24:53] Anita Sandoval LPC: And I will have all the links in the show notes, everyone, so just look in the show notes and you'll find that.
[00:24:59] It's [00:25:00] the Free Living with the Heart and Mind Self Assessment. What will the results give you again?
[00:25:04] Lorea Martinez: Yeah. So they will give you a snapshot of how you're practicing your heart skills, how you are building, intentional habits, which is another part of the book around mindfulness, around belonging and physical wellbeing.
[00:25:20] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:20] Lorea Martinez: And then also around vital qualities, which is another part of the book, creativity, curiosity, and inner wisdom. So you get to answer questions about those aspects- And get a report to see where you are in each one of those
[00:25:37] Anita Sandoval LPC: Thank you so much. And again, everyone, I'm gonna include her website, social media links, book information, and self-assessment in the show notes in the episode information.
[00:25:46] And before we close, I ask every guest two special questions. These questions help us understand what empowerment and legacy mean to the women who join me in the podcast. Lorea, what is your definition of an [00:26:00] empowered woman?
[00:26:02] Lorea Martinez: I would say an empowered woman is a woman that is compassionate, that is confident, and that she knows her value.
[00:26:13] Anita Sandoval LPC: Ah, I love that definition. Yes. It looks so different for everyone, and this one, having the compassion and value for oneself is definitely a must-have in order to be empowered. And my final question asks us to look beyond the work of what we're doing today.
[00:26:31] Imagine that sometime in the future, everything about you, your legacy, your work, your book, everything has been lost due to circumstances beyond our control. And three generations along the line later, they find a handwritten letter
[00:26:48] what truth would you want to pass on to her to inspire her and the women who come after her to continue empowering one another?
[00:26:58] Lorea Martinez: That we all [00:27:00] have inner wisdom, that we have, many inner resources that we can access if you are open to walk through that door, that we all have so many things that we can give to the world. You just have to connect with our inner light.
[00:27:24] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm-hmm. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. What a beautiful meaning and truth to leave future generations of women.
[00:27:32] And Dr. Lorea Martinez Perez, thank you so much for joining me and reminding us that burnout isn't laziness or any personal failure. They're not problems, it's information that has been repressed and silenced due to whatever programming, and we don't have to continue performing, being ambitious, powering through our lives and ignoring our own selves, and criticizing or comparing.
[00:27:57] And to everyone listening, you can connect with [00:28:00] Lorea, learn more about her and her book loreamartinez.com. And again, I will include her assessment in the show notes. And until then, honor your voice, empower the women that are around you.
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