Now That the Mask Is Off: Navigating Love, Boundaries & Burnout as Neurodivergent Adults

Now That the Mask Is Off: Navigating Love, Boundaries & Burnout as Neurodivergent Adults (Part 2 w/ Eric Tivers)

What if taking the mask off isn’t the end—but the beginning of finding love, belonging, and peace as your authentic self?

In Part Two of my conversation with Eric Tivers—Licensed Clinical Social Worker, ADHD coach, and host of ADHD ReWired—we explore what life looks like once you stop people-pleasing and start living unmasked.

Eric shares the truth about:
 ✨ The difference between fitting in and belonging
⚡ Why consistency isn’t the goal—resilience is
💗 How community and accountability help ADHD adults thrive
🌿 The power of being loved because of who you are, not despite it

If you missed Part 1, start there first: listen in: 

Unmasking the People Pleaser: How ADHD and AuDHD Shape Relationship Struggles

Or watch with the amazing visual for my neurodivergent community: 

Video: Unmasking the People Pleaser

 That’s where we unpack how masking begins and how unmasking starts the journey toward authentic living.

Then come back for Part 2 to learn how to build healthier relationships, find your people, and protect your peace.

💡 Key Takeaways:

1️⃣ Fitting in disconnects you—belonging heals you.
 2️⃣ ADHD growth = resilience, not perfection.
 3️⃣ Accountability and safe community create lasting change.

🔔 ⏰ Time-Sensitive Announcements:

💻 ADHD ReWired Accountability Groups – Open Enrollment Now!
If you’ve been waiting to join a supportive ADHD community that helps you stay consistent, connected, and confident—this is your moment.
👉 Apply before registration closes: https://www.adhdrewired.com

Transcript

[00:00:00] Anita Sandoval LPC: For those who don't know Eric yet, he is a licensed clinical social worker, an ADHD coach, and the host of ADHD Rewired, one of the most loved podcasts, at least by me and many others I've heard in the ADHD community.

[00:00:15] He brings this grounded, curious and real approach to neurodivergence, and today you'll hear that firsthand. Eric, welcome to the show. 

[00:00:24] Eric Tivers LMSW: Thank you. And thank you for your patience with all of these scheduling stuff and, and ADHD showing up in all kinds of fun ways. 

[00:00:32] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, so fun. I just, whenever these things happen, I'm so compassionate because I feel like.

[00:00:39] I'm being understood and validated. So, two peas in a pod here. I know last time we were talking about masking and unmasking mm-hmm. And I've noticed myself being more intentional in how I am being approached or approaching people whenever I go to a social [00:01:00] gathering.

[00:01:00] And I don't know if it's the same for you. Have you noticed more people, I guess, in your community reach out to you more, talk to you more on recognizing their own masks or feeling that tension between authenticity and connection? 

[00:01:18] Eric Tivers LMSW: I think the, the more that, people in the neurodivergent community.

[00:01:24] Even just introduce the whole idea of unmasking. Right. It's, 'cause I think, something that, that I hear so often and relate to, very much is this idea that, you've been masking for so long, but not even realizing it. Like until, like the mask hurts so much to keep it on that we're confronted with, with really looking at that mask and saying, what is that doing to, how is that serving me?

[00:01:50] How has that served me and how is that hurting me? 

[00:01:53] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. Yeah. And I think also what was mentioned, at least for me, is that before [00:02:00] I would come home and just be so burned out, I was just exhausted. 

[00:02:05] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:02:05] Anita Sandoval LPC: And now I am with my quirks. I went out with my girlfriends and they wanted, it's called. Kicking Axes, we throw axes.

[00:02:15] Yeah. Ah, I've never had that. And so for me it was a sensory and I forgot to bring my loops and, just the feeling of something heavy and throwing it and hearing the clink, it would just like bounce back and mm-hmm. I'm just like, oh, I'm just very sensory and it's the noise.

[00:02:32] And I, I love exposure therapy. And they were just whatever you want. And I'm like, no, I'll at least do it once. And by the end of everything, I was able to, throw it and be okay with it once in a while. But they were so welcoming, probably because they're also neurodivergent themselves. But I mean, I did not leave exhausted.

[00:02:53] And I, for me, that's when I noticed the difference between masking and unmasking and trying to [00:03:00] belong. I know last session we talked about masking and people pleasing, both being subconscious and conscious level. Mm-hmm. I know we've had some time from part one to part two.

[00:03:10] How have you, gotten, insight or reflection on the difference between people pleasing and masking? I do know there's an overlap, but how do you see that? 

[00:03:22] Eric Tivers LMSW: I think, the, the people pleasing is, I think we do it because of being too preoccupied about what other people think of us.

[00:03:32] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:03:33] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. Where masking is, we're in some situations there may be some benefit to us to, to do that. I mean, it's like code switching, right? It's like if you can code switch in in different settings, there can be. some advantages to that. 

[00:03:50] Speaker 3: Okay. But 

[00:03:50] Eric Tivers LMSW: it's like, with all things like that, there's, there's the other side of it as well, like what's the cost to it?

[00:03:56] And I think for a lot of people, as we've been talking about, are starting to [00:04:00] recognize the cost of this, this, ongoing masking. Okay. and, and I think especially too, once people start to experience, sort of positive responses to taking up the mask, 'cause they're, they're finding other neurodivergent people who, who are, just like them in, in different ways.

[00:04:16] there almost becomes this like refusal to even put, to even consider putting the mask back on. Oh. And I think I'm kind of there to a Okay. to a degree or I'm just like, there's certain things that I used to, to do, whether it's, How I prepare meals or the way I work. And I think it, it kind of comes down to like the value of giving less shits about the stuff that doesn't really matter.

[00:04:43] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes, yes, yes. I have a shirt that I use for the gym that says if I'm too much then go find less. when you're neurodivergent, you know, other neurodivergents, but if other neurodivergents do not [00:05:00] manage or medicate their symptoms, it may exasperate other people's neurodivergent symptoms.

[00:05:09] And so I'm very particular who I hang out with. 

[00:05:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:05:14] Anita Sandoval LPC: And if there's someone who's a neurodivergent and refuses to admit that they are, but the symptoms are there. One thing I like to say to people, they're like, oh, we're gonna go here. I'm like, great, I'm not. And they're like, well, why? Because they wanna people please and they want to go ahead and belong.

[00:05:32] And I'm like, no, I, I'm protecting my peace. They look at me like, what? And I'm like, yeah. it takes a lot of work for Neurodivergence to, to really hone in intentionally and manage their nervous system and their brain to work effectively, at least mine, for my prefrontal cortex, just to have an environment to mask and then just like that.

[00:05:59] Does that make [00:06:00] sense? 

[00:06:00] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yeah. it's, it's interesting. Well, I think the, the value of that, not just the self-awareness piece, but the, the self-acceptance that allows you then to communicate with those you are, in community with about what your, your needs in a sense are. 

[00:06:17] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:06:17] Eric Tivers LMSW: I think is so important.

[00:06:19] my, I think between the last time we had a conversation and now my, my dad had passed away and my, my dad was always so like, did not wanna acknowledge his disabilities, and my dad had a brain injury 30 years ago. Oh. and so he, he had a aneurysm in his brainstem, and if you know anything about the brain, that's a real bad place to have an aneurysm.

[00:06:39] Yeah. and so he had 30 years of, of lots of, challenges, as a result of that. And the thing that I always tried to, communicate with him and help him understand and he. So we really had a hard time with, with grasping this, is that when you are, you're in a, a space where you're being unsafe because 'cause your pride is getting [00:07:00] in the way.

[00:07:00] 'cause you don't wanna use that cane or that walker. Right. You're actually making everybody more uncomfortable. Oh, right. Because it's like, 'cause if we're all holding our breath waiting from to fall. Right. And like, we would much rather have someone who's asking for help and needs, supports. 'cause it's like, all right, we, we understand what you need and that's fine.

[00:07:21] It's okay to need things. It's okay to need accommodations and assistance. so I think this whole like, let, let me try to do it all on my own and make it look normal. Like it's one, I don't think any of us, whether it's a physical disability or neuro divergence, I don't think we're fooling anyone.

[00:07:38] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:07:38] Eric Tivers LMSW: And it's just hurting ourselves and it's really hurting other people too by not owning our own stuff. 

[00:07:45] Anita Sandoval LPC: Do you feel that it would cause more burnout in that person?

[00:07:49] Eric Tivers LMSW: Possibly. my dad before his brain injury was an extremely patient person. He was also a very athletic person. Yeah. And, after afterwards he was [00:08:00] very, he's also a very hard worker and kind of stubborn. so it's like those are like all of our good qualities.

[00:08:06] They're good qualities. Up to a point. Yeah. 

[00:08:10] Yeah. 'cause I do think it, it led to some, to, depression and some anger. yeah. Which, understandably. but yeah, that was, it was hard to watch. It was hard to be sometimes like in whether it was being in the same room with him or going to a restaurant with him, it was just like.

[00:08:24] Like there was a, there was a point many years ago where I like, you're not allowed to come over unless you're coming over with your walker. 

[00:08:30] Like it's, it's not safe. 

[00:08:31] Anita Sandoval LPC: You mentioned a boundary and if anything, a rule. So I know people tend to confuse boundaries and rules.

[00:08:37] Rules are only good if they're agreed upon boundaries is this is what I'm going to do. If this doesn't happen, or if this does happen, and you mentioned, look, this is a rule in my house. You don't have to agree upon it, but I'm setting a boundary. I am not going to allow, you in here. But the rule is if you do come in here, I need a walker, for you to,

[00:08:59] Eric Tivers LMSW: use [00:09:00] it.

[00:09:00] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. For you to use it. He's like, I got it. Here you go. Oh my 

[00:09:02] Eric Tivers LMSW: gosh. . But the number of times I, he would like, I would see him go from like one area of his place to, you know, without the walkers. Well, I'm just going to get them like. So I don't care if we're going as five steps away. Like you have balance issues, you walk, I mean,

[00:09:20] when he was younger, when I was younger or just a few years after his, his, uh, I think it was like four or five years after his injury. I came home from college one day and my dad has, has balance issues because of the, the brain injury and he was on the roof cleaning the gutters. 

[00:09:36] Speaker 3: Wow. Wow. 

[00:09:38] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yes. Wow. So, and it's just like, oh my gosh.

[00:09:42] Is that feeling like, and maybe it's, it's, it is different with an acquired disability? I don't know. Like I, I speculate. 

[00:09:51] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:09:51] Eric Tivers LMSW: 'cause like, growing up neurodivergent you, even though I didn't know I was neurodivergent Yeah. It's kinda like the lens that I was looking at the world through is all I've ever [00:10:00] known.

[00:10:01] Anita Sandoval LPC: And not knowing that there's something else. I like how you said that, Living in my childhood home, it's, it's interesting 'cause my husband saw it and he told me well you didn't know anything else and it just broke me because I didn't even realize, yeah, you're right here. I was putting myself down thinking I don't know what, social behaviors are, but they didn't either one neurodivergent to another.

[00:10:25] Speaker 5: Yeah. 

[00:10:25] Anita Sandoval LPC: And unfortunately for my side of the relatives, they chose to stay with the whole. It's like this thing, like, oh, they just want attention. They're just spoiled. There's nothing wrong. There's, diagnoses of this doesn't exist unless it's something severe like schizophrenia. But other than that, A DHD doesn't exist.

[00:10:47] 

[00:10:47] Eric Tivers LMSW: I hear that and it's a common trope, but A DHD in a sense, it is actually severe if you look at what are the ripple effects in our lives that the ADHD causes. one of the being it's, it is one of the, it is [00:11:00] a disorder that, shortens lifespan. 

[00:11:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:11:04] Eric Tivers LMSW: More than most of the leading health risks in Yes.

[00:11:08] In. Like, you know, more than, smoking or obesity or diabetes, like, and because people with ADHD are more likely to be smokers and have diabetes and not take care of their health and engage in risky, behaviors where they Yes. They can get hurt or killed. Yes. drug use, alcohol use and doing it excessively Yeah.

[00:11:28] All higher with, with ADHD. 

[00:11:31] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. And you know, the other comments I hear is, oh, they just have a weak mind. Wow. I mean, 

[00:11:38] Eric Tivers LMSW: weak executive function ain't sure. but like that's just one part of the mind. 

[00:11:43] Anita Sandoval LPC: Exactly. Exactly. So when they say, oh, you know what, it's, 'cause I have ADHD. Okay, but that doesn't excuse the behavior.

[00:11:53] Right, right. You're in charge of that and I, wanna bring this up early on and use this throughout with [00:12:00] your community, which is your accountability and community group, because I know the holidays are coming I'm hearing boundaries, I'm hearing, ADHD, executive functioning, substance abuse. You are having an important registration right now coming up. Yeah. Can you please talk about that? 

[00:12:20] Eric Tivers LMSW: So I do these coaching and accountability groups.

[00:12:22] They are, they're intensive online. We meet three times a week in a group of up to 16. They're typically around 12 people. and then in the, during the third week, we actually assign within that group accountability teams. So, in addition to meeting three times a week, we also, people meet in accountability teams outside a group and also check in a couple times a week over like a group chat.

[00:12:46] Just like, all right, what are my top three, like priors to the day, right? And then checking in a couple times during the day. And I'll tell you the reason that I started these groups. I started these 11 years ago before anyone was doing any of this kind of stuff online. Yeah. like I was, look, 'cause the [00:13:00] reason I started doing this is I was in, I was seeing a therapist for some of my own ADHD stuff.

[00:13:05] And I would see this therapist once a week, and I would get to the therapist's office, 20 sometimes 30 minutes early so I could do the homework of my therapy homework that I was supposed to be doing all week. And it was frustrating because I was, I'd be thinking about it all week. but I, I could not get myself to actually do it unless that, that, like having to check in about it was right around the corner.

[00:13:29] Right. Which speaks to that, that time horizon piece with, with ADHD. Yeah. And so I, I was looking online, like, I'm like, I need somebody to check in with more frequently and there's nothing. So I'm like, all right, what would actually be helpful for me? So I created what would've been helpful for me.

[00:13:44] and it's so funny too, like the things we don't even realize until, like hindsight, I didn't even realize I was starting a whole another business. because I'm a, a clinician, I'm a therapist and, I started this podcast not with a clear vision about what I was doing, just like I wanted to get my ideas out there [00:14:00] more.

[00:14:00] Yeah. , my son was recently diagnosed with Autism and I was like, I gotta do something that can create opportunities. so, I, I don't have to, to be concerned about a financial constraint, limiting what I can provide for my son and depending kind of therapy or education services that, that he may need.

[00:14:15] And so I kind of just like in total, ADHD, the idea of this group. I, because when I first started my podcast, it was just an, it was a solo show. Now I kind of make outlines and talk about different topics and it, I don't know what made me think about this, probably because I just maybe got back from like a, one of these therapy appointments that I've been frustrated about not doing my homework at.

[00:14:36] so I, I impulsively said while recording. I think I'm going to, I'm gonna try to do these groups. Okay. And I'll have more information next week. I'm like, well, it's in the recording, I guess I'll leave it in and then I'll try to figure it out now that I'm putting it out there. Yeah. And then for like eight weeks I was like, trying to figure this out.

[00:14:52] I was like, what kind of worms did I just open for myself? Right. Because there was no one doing this. So I didn't have a model of for this at all. [00:15:00] and so, the first, we did the first one, it was actually not even on Zoom, it was on a platform called Uber Conference. Have you ever used that? No. So basically it looks like Zoom sort of, except you don't actually see video, you just see the squares of who's talking.

[00:15:12] Okay. Like as someone's name or like, you'll show a map of the location. Okay. And it was 12 weeks, four times a week. And we didn't even have a set schedule. , we decided by each week. Alright, when are we all available? I'm like, oh my God, it's the most ADHD way to do that. And I was like, okay, that doesn't make sense.

[00:15:29] I'm not doing it that way again. So like every, every season we're now, doing registration for the 42nd season of doing this. So I've had over 1200 people go through this program. Wow. And, part of, of growth, , feedback is such an important part of, of that. So every season we get, we do, exit surveys, we do, we also do like, , mid group surveys throughout.

[00:15:48] So we do a couple. And so we're always getting feedback, tweaking, , iterating. And so, you know, we're at the 42nd season I think of, I'm trying to remember what it was like of clocked something like 2000 hours of like, doing group coaching. 

[00:15:59] Anita Sandoval LPC: Wow. 

[00:15:59] Eric Tivers LMSW: [00:16:00] and it's, it's amazing because of the impact that it really has.

[00:16:05] It's, especially for people who are maybe new to, to ADHD or have been kind of like white knuckling it. 

[00:16:11] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:16:11] Eric Tivers LMSW: and just it's not working for them. 

[00:16:14] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:16:14] Eric Tivers LMSW: And because so many ADHDers carry so much shame around stuff around ADHD 

[00:16:21] Speaker 3: yes. 

[00:16:22] Eric Tivers LMSW: I don't think there is any one-on-one scenario that can really hit at that shame in a more healing, therapeutic way than a group setting.

[00:16:30] 'cause it's, you know, it's one thing to you, you know, if you're hiring a coach, you're hiring a therapist and they Yeah. Express to you that yes, this lots of people with ADHD experience these things. Yeah. Like, okay, yeah. I'm hiring this person to say that to make me feel better. Right. Yeah. But when your peers are all not only like expressing similar challenges, but also have these amazing strengths and, you know, you, you see them like not giving themselves credit for what they're doing well and just being really hard on themselves for the things they're struggling [00:17:00] with.

[00:17:00] Speaker 4: Yeah. 

[00:17:00] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. And then they're like, well, you're being so hard on yourself. Yeah. And then they start to realize, oh, wait a minute. So am I. Yeah. And there's something about doing this in a peer setting 

[00:17:08] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:17:09] Eric Tivers LMSW: That allows you to sort of take off the armor. And really show up in a vulnerable way. And that's where the real growth happens.

[00:17:16] It's about being vulnerable. It's about being able to say like, yeah, this is, I, I, I'm not really sure why this was hard for me and, but I wanna explore it. And 

[00:17:24] Speaker 3: yeah. 

[00:17:25] Eric Tivers LMSW: you know, just the power of that, that me too, that we get in, in a group or community experience. 

[00:17:29] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. That sense of belonging is just beautiful.

[00:17:33] 'cause we want to belong and I'm very blessed to be doing these podcasts, so I'm able to meet with like-minded people like yourself, but not everybody has that luxury. And the fact that I know this stuff and we're ready to just share it and, and help others to know that you don't have to be shamed and Yeah.

[00:17:54] I think when I mentioned the story in, in part one about that mother who found out her daughter [00:18:00] was neurodivergent and said, oh my gosh, you know, how did I not know this with that shame. For me, it was more of the fear of she's gonna feel the shame 'cause she's ADHD and I don't want her to.

[00:18:14] Right? And so having these type of groups and community, instead of feeling that sadness for your child of their ADHD, and what if they feel that shame and rejection, Hey, look at this group. Look at this accountability group or this, coaching group. This, this place where they can embrace, you get to know about your ADHD in a non-shaming way, in a non-judgmental way.

[00:18:38] And therefore you can see at, at least for a parent, the ADHD diagnosis for your child or growing young adult. And that it's okay, we may have a weak executive functioning, but we can work on how we can strengthen it. I was just wanting to add that, 'cause for me it wasn't more of like, how did I not know this?

[00:18:56] It was more like, oh my gosh, she's gonna feel this, she's gonna have [00:19:00] these, these things. And now for me, she has a different, there's this thing called outbound, and this is for under 18 years old and they have all these classes and she takes an executive skills class with a. Teacher and they have their degrees and everything for little kids in curriculum.

[00:19:18] And she goes there every single week, didn't think anything of it. And I tend to do my own things. And one time we did a DIY with a friend play date and I tell her, look, this is called , body doubling, so whenever you wanna do some work. 'cause I know she, she likes to stitch and crochet and she left that for a while.

[00:19:39] So I did a play date and we talked about body doubling and what it means. She's like, huh, I learned that in my executive skills class. She goes and she's like, I didn't think anything of it. I'm like, but do you see how you are feeling more motivated now? Finishing it? She's like, yeah, see that. And during 

[00:19:55] Eric Tivers LMSW: COVID is when I launched the adult study hall community.

[00:19:57] It's a whole separate membership community just for [00:20:00] co-working. 

[00:20:00] Speaker 4: No, and, and 

[00:20:01] Eric Tivers LMSW: it's something that we actually do in, , in the coaching groups. Okay. and so, and anyone who joins our coaching groups can also have access to all of the co-working stuff that we do. 'cause , it is, it's like. I don't know, like shockingly effective.

[00:20:13] Like, it's strange because it's like they're not really doing much of an interaction, but yet being on screen with all these people who are working, like when you're working on this thing and it starts to hit that point of either boredom or challenge where you're just like, Ugh, I, I, I don't wanna do this anymore.

[00:20:28] And you look up 'cause you're about to go do some kind of distraction and you see other people working. It keeps you focused. It really does. 

[00:20:37] Anita Sandoval LPC: Ah, I noticed you said something, oh, I noticed in your website it said something like 24/ 7. Yeah. Something like that. What is the 24/7? 

[00:20:44] Eric Tivers LMSW: So I, one of the, the zoom rooms that we have, it's, it's at basically a 24/7 room.

[00:20:49] It's a quiet co-working room. So like, I have a setting where you can't even unmute yourself. so you just come in, you share what you're working on in the chat and, and your work. We have other, other sessions that are [00:21:00] facilitated. So there may be, we'll, we will do stuff like, all right, what, what's your goal for the next hour?

[00:21:04] We'll set a timer and then we'll do a quick check-in. and I know some people I, in that community, the event will say it's like from like 12 to two, they start at 12, and then they, they are in there all day long working like, which is, I think amazing. It's, it's very cool that, that a lot of people have really realized how helpful it is and then just, yeah, wait their own sessions within our communities to be able to say, you know what, this actually helps me when I'm actually like, in charge, in a sense of, of showing up to, to run this.

[00:21:32] 'cause then there's a additional accountability. so a lot of people have, have kind of discovered that and it's like all things, strategy wise, I would say try it. I think it works for lots of people with ADHD I feel like doesn't work for everyone. Yeah. And but, but definitely. Try it. 'cause it's, I think it's really effective.

[00:21:51] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh yeah. If I see it in my little girl, and like for me, I get exhausted as a mother, being entrepreneur of having my private practice, being [00:22:00] sports mom, and to know that somebody else out there is doing something for me. Like the executive skills teacher's, like, boom, takes a load off of me and it helps so much.

[00:22:09] And so when you go into this community, not only are you learning for yourself, but you might be learning for your child too Yeah. On things that you can do and it just helps inside out. Yes. 

[00:22:20] Eric Tivers LMSW: I mean, even when I, when I used to work, , with kids in my clinical practice, I was primarily working with the parents.

[00:22:25] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:22:26] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. Because it's like, I, I can get your kid to behave in my office. Like, that's not, that's not my concern. Like, my concern is how are they doing at home? How are they doing at school? Like, you, you need more of that like. not, not getting into power struggles kind of thing. Like, 'cause what, what's that expression?

[00:22:44] It's, arguing with a, with a kid, with ADHD is like mud wrestling a pig. You both get dirty, but only the pig enjoys it, 

[00:22:52] Anita Sandoval LPC: especially if they have PDA, 

[00:22:54] Eric Tivers LMSW: right? Or, or 

[00:22:56] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh my gosh, I just had that happen recently with my patient. [00:23:00] And we mentioned ground rules with play therapy and of course PDA comes in and they're like, Hmm, let me test these.

[00:23:08] And so pick your battles, parents, pick your battles that's, it is what it is, 

[00:23:14] Eric Tivers LMSW: and, and it's hard sometimes because, my training was very sort of behavioral based. Like, I was, I was trained at ABA stuff. so like, there's definitely been times where I've had to like, check that at the door with my son.

[00:23:25] 'cause like, I mean, he's, he's kind of just like me in so many ways. So it's like, I know the power struggles aren't gonna win. 

[00:23:33] Speaker 5: No. 

[00:23:33] Eric Tivers LMSW: it's just, you just gonna end up, we're both frustrated with each other. and so I have learned of him like being playful to redirect him is way more effective than telling him to, you need to be respectful.

[00:23:46] Mm-hmm. That was rude, right? It's like, 

[00:23:48] Anita Sandoval LPC: yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Telling a neuro divergent what to do. It's like, no, don't even go there. Especially if they have PDA and, and one of the things, because I feel like my daughter has [00:24:00] some of that, the other neurodivergent one, she's like, okay, lovey-dovey everything, right?

[00:24:04] Not the other one. The other one's like, oh my Lord. And so I'll be like, you know what? This is the planner, this is this, this is that. And I had to just sit down and have a talk. I'm not gonna tell you what to do. I mean, I'll let you set the reminders. I'll tell you this much, but you do the rest.

[00:24:19] Now, if you want to fail, that's fine by me. If you think your friends are gonna follow you to the next grade level, keep on thinking that they will, But this is your choice, like ultimately not mine. I'd rather you fail now and not later, but this is your choice. Whatever you wanna do. Try it. If it works, great.

[00:24:40] If you don't wanna try, if it doesn't work, fine. And 'cause she'll be like, it's not gonna work, and da, da da. And I'm like, fine. And just let her be. And for the first time she goes, mom, I got a hundred on my math exam. And I was like, yes. 'cause we take the extra time every day in the planner. What did you learn?[00:25:00] 

[00:25:00] What is it you're working on? Let's dedicate at least 15, 20 minutes on re relearning that. And it was such a headache and before it was like, fine, you don't want, you fine. Let's see what you get. And she would get a failing grade. 

[00:25:13] Eric Tivers LMSW: it's interesting, something that I've, experienced that can work with some, demand avoidant, , kids is, if they're kind of having oppositional responses to stuff, don't tell, don't say your direction.

[00:25:25] Like if they have a phone, text it to them or literally write it on a piece of paper so they can't verbally take what you just said and throw it back at you. 

[00:25:33] Anita Sandoval LPC: No. Wow. I'm gonna try that even in my sessions. Ooh, I'm gonna do that. I can, I can see that. I can see that working out 

[00:25:44] Eric Tivers LMSW: , and doing kind of like a little bit of that, like the, the, I dunno if I would say it was Socratic questioning, but like for example, , I was looking at my, son's grades online.

[00:25:54] and there was, there was one that I was like, oh, this is a little bit lower than I think it should be. But I didn't address it that way. I [00:26:00] just ask them, Hey, when was the last time you checked your grades online? That's right. Because if I, because if I would've just said, Hey, why do you have a a c plus in this class right now?

[00:26:10] Like, there wouldn't be much productive outta there. 

[00:26:14] Anita Sandoval LPC: . Yep. I, I love it. Let them connect the dots. Yes. Let them build the bridge. I love that one. 

[00:26:19] Eric Tivers LMSW: that's such an important point too, and I think for any, any like, growth oriented relationship you might be in. Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:26:27] Eric Tivers LMSW: That gift of allowing some, so you're basically creating the environment that allows them to connect the dots mm-hmm.

[00:26:35] Is such an important, I think, , kind of component to growth and connection and respecting someone's autonomy. and, self-determination. Yes. And I always tell this, , to people in my groups, like, look, there's so many times where there's five different solutions I could think of that I think would probably help you.

[00:26:52] Mm-hmm. But I'm, I'm not gonna take away the gift of allowing you to discover. 

[00:26:56] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:57] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. Because it's like you might think you want to be [00:27:00] told what you should do. I'm telling you, you don't. 'cause like, you know, it's about here's, let's try these, I'm gonna support you and how do we evaluate how this is working for you?

[00:27:11] I'm gonna support you on deciding how do we tweak different things. But I'm not gonna give you the answers and I'm not gonna give you the formula. 'cause one of the problems with, with sort of this formula idea 

[00:27:21] Speaker 3: Yeah. Is 

[00:27:22] Eric Tivers LMSW: that they are one of the ingredients and so I can't tell 'em, give 'em a formula. Being that they're one of the ingredients they have to make it their own.

[00:27:30] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:27:30] Eric Tivers LMSW: And so it's sometimes, at first for some people that could feel frustrated and they're like, just gimme the answer. It's like, yes, I'm actually helping you learn and making that learning way deeper by not, and letting you sit a little bit and struggle, with giving you the right support. 

[00:27:45] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah.

[00:27:46] Eric Tivers LMSW: Through that. 

[00:27:46] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes. Oh my God, thank you for saying that. That is the most beautiful thing that, that that is something I try to tell people. Let them struggle. age appropriate, developmental wise type of struggle. Your community, I wanna [00:28:00] say that what you're building within the registration, they're gonna struggle.

[00:28:03] There's no set formula, I'm assuming, but there is a type of guidance, 

[00:28:08] Eric Tivers LMSW: right. And we have curriculum. I mean, our groups are very, very structured. Right. But within that, the structure there is a lot of, of space for exploration. and I always tell people like. Hey, if you don't like my worksheets, make one, make your own version of it.

[00:28:23] If you don't like this or you, it's so interesting too, how many people come in and they want it, try to like get the maximum out of every single exercise. Yeah. And I'm like, learning science would say that's not the best idea. , And it, it takes people a while to kinda let certain things go. And I, and I always encourage people to, it's one of the exercises we basically do is we have people fill out this like getting ready, like handout that we have post in the community.

[00:28:49] Okay, hey, why, why did I join? Like what, what are the things I'm trying to address? What are the habits I'm trying to, to change? And I, you know, we will keep referring them back to that and say, look, you can change your mind on those things, but like, [00:29:00] keep coming back to the, to your why. Yeah. 

[00:29:04] Speaker 3: Always. I think it's 

[00:29:05] Eric Tivers LMSW: so important.

[00:29:05] Always we get, especially with ADHD'ers is we get very much in the, whatever's right in front of us is what we're focusing. 

[00:29:11] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:11] Eric Tivers LMSW: Sometimes what's in front of us isn't actually that important to us. Like it in the big picture of what we're working on right now isn't the most pressing need. But I tell people like, it's okay, like get familiarity with the stuff, but don't worry about it.

[00:29:23] Like, if this isn't an issue for you, you don't need to spend time on this. 

[00:29:26] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, I love that. Okay, so you have your, program. And I know we talked about masking unmasking Neurodivergents this podcast is basically women who are. People pleasers and wanting to become empowered. My question to you is, let's assume they take this, the membership, they go through this journey, everybody learns differently, has a different growth mindset.

[00:29:49] Speaker 4: Mm-hmm. 

[00:29:50] Anita Sandoval LPC: How would they look like in this everyday life? 'cause they're envisioning something in their head. Like, if I take this, I'm gonna be like abc, like in therapy. They come in thinking you're gonna tell [00:30:00] me the issues and problem solved.

[00:30:02] I'm healed 

[00:30:03] Speaker 5: I'm cured. Right. Yeah. 

[00:30:06] Eric Tivers LMSW: I know. I, I always tell people, one of my, my kind of the only guarantees that I make in my program is that they'll still have ADHD at the end of the program. Because I want people to understand like, we're not hearing anything. Right. We are learning how to live life in a way that works for our brain.

[00:30:23] And part of what that means is learning how to bend the world to us. Mm-hmm. Not the other way around because the world doesn't bend towards us like I wish it did, I wish the world was more accommodating. 

[00:30:33] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:30:34] Eric Tivers LMSW: But, so one of the, the things that we spend a lot of time on is, kinda that, that role of, of self-advocacy of how do I speak up for what I need?

[00:30:42] How do we address conflicts in our, in our teams? Like I tell people like, healthy conflict matters. Yeah. Like, don't avoid, like, if, if yes, if someone said that they were gonna do something and they didn't do it, address it. Like mm-hmm. Don't be mean about it, but express how it made you feel.

[00:30:56] 'cause you have every right to do that. Like, it was frustrating when you said you [00:31:00] were gonna check in with me and that didn't happen. Like, what's, what's going on? And like, was that to try to just get to, to address the issue collaboratively? 

[00:31:08] Some of our like closest relationships. Like are they close relationships because we've never had conflict or are they close relationships because we've effectively solved conflict? 

[00:31:17] Anita Sandoval LPC: People pleasing, yes. Oh my God. Right. Because 

[00:31:21] Eric Tivers LMSW: Anita, I used to think that I had a great marriage because we would, we never fought.

[00:31:26] Speaker 3: Oh, 

[00:31:27] Eric Tivers LMSW: right. And just to only to learn like, oh, we were both extremely conflict avoidant. Right. And anytime I would like bring something up and then she would have an emotional response to when I was bring it up, then I would backpedal, oh, nevermind. Like. It's fine. , That was, and I actually realized in, in recent years doing a lot of my own healing work that, oh, that was kind of how my dad was like, because I had, 

[00:31:52] I, I don't really have a relationship with my mom anymore.

[00:31:54] but my, my dad was kind of like, like the, the safety, the rock, like in, in my family growing [00:32:00] up. but he was also like very, conflict avoidance and just wanted to keep the peace with everyone. And and I kinda realized that sort of later in life and it's like, oh, like maybe he was also part of the issue as well.

[00:32:14] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. 'cause see when you have one narcissist person, their bread and butter is a people pleaser. Mm-hmm. People pleasers and narcissists go together like two peas in a pod. And so whenever I see a narcissist and their partner is. More than likely a people pleaser. And, and that's, that's, that's exactly what that is.

[00:32:38] And we as children grow up thinking, oh my gosh, what, what's happening? and what, and then we think that that's the right way. And it's programming, it's nothing we did wrong is just all that we were shown. learning how to self-advocate, that's huge. But then going through that barrier with ADHD of Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, how, does your community help [00:33:00] with that?

[00:33:01] Eric Tivers LMSW: Well, I think just the value of, knowing that the community gets it and members of the community get it. And, a lot of times in the A DHD space, people are, are sort of try, they're grasping for ways to be more consistent. Right. Yeah. It's like that's, there's a sort of like troope of ADHD, like the only thing that's consistent about ADHD is that we're inconsistent.

[00:33:23] Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:24] Eric Tivers LMSW: So if, if you're not ADHD, but you know someone that is and you're like, wait, but they did it before, why can't they do it again? Yeah. It 'cause they have ADHD like that's part of how ADHD works. And Yes, it's, it's even more frustrating for us as it is for you living with the, ADHD'er, right.

[00:33:40] Yeah. , part of what we talk about is let go of focusing on, on consistency, because I think the consistency is a lagging indicator. I think let's focus on resilience. Let's focus on getting back up when we've slipped. When, when the thing that we've been doing and doing well, that's been really helpful for us and really working.

[00:33:59] Suddenly we realize, [00:34:00] oh wait, we haven't done that in three weeks. Like the, the whole part where you beat yourself up about it for two weeks, you didn't like, skip that part and just say, all right, like, I slipped. What's step one to get back on track? And I think that. One of the things that I think that, , my program really has fostered so well is that resilience spirit, is that getting back up? Is that, coming back to that where, people feel confident in, okay, yeah, I know I'm gonna slip. It's, it's okay. 

[00:34:27] Speaker 4: Yeah. 

[00:34:27] Eric Tivers LMSW: accepting isn't like, yay. I love all the things about ADHD accepting is I understand what I have to do to navigate life and to create the life that I want to create.

[00:34:38] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yep. Yeah. And that 

[00:34:39] Eric Tivers LMSW: often involves taking the mask off. 

[00:34:42] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, that's something else people assume being empowered and resilient is that you have to be strong all the time. They're like, oh no, we have to be strong and not cry. We have to be strong and not mess up.

[00:34:52] And I'm like, are you kidding? The person who's the strongest, most resilient and empowered is the one who can cry. The one who does admit of [00:35:00] their failures and their wrongdoing. Yeah. In front, in front of people. And that's what you're teaching your community like, Hey, I can mess up. Yeah, yeah. Hey, I can, yeah, I can cry.

[00:35:11] I can, I don't have to have it all together all the time. 

[00:35:14] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right? Yeah. No, that's so true. That's so true. 

[00:35:17] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. We know when we mess up we're like, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. what's one truth? 'cause I do it all the time too, 

[00:35:24] what's one truth that's helped you to stop? Over apologizing. 'cause I get it, apologizing is amazing. Awesome. When it, when it needs to be. But I do notice that a lot of ADHDers or AUDHD'ers or neuro divergent people tend to apologize for their behavior. What has helped you to help stop apologizing just for who you are?

[00:35:48] Eric Tivers LMSW: Up until that very last part of the question, I was, I was going one way in my head and then like, wait, that's a little bit of a different question. I, it was two, I think two seasons ago in one of my [00:36:00] groups. I had, I, I was late for one of my sessions and, and just like two minutes late, but I was like, it was like, I think it was in the first week still.

[00:36:09] And I, the importance of like modeling what we're trying to, accept from our, our members and I was apparently very apologetic. and. One of our peer mentors. So our, our groups, we have a couple peer mentors who, they are alumni that have gone through the program, that, that come back and we see are like helpers.

[00:36:26] and so one of the, the, peer mentors, we call 'em ADDmin with two D's or A-D-D-M-I-N, I love it at, after the session was over, she asked if, if you can talk to me for a sec. And she asked permission to offer some feedback. And I was like, sure. Like I think you were a little overly apologetic about being late.

[00:36:47] Like I think not only was it unnecessary, I think it's actually model something that you're not wanting to model. And I was like, that was, not only did I love the way you set up the, the asking permission to give feedback, [00:37:00] but the way you did it was like so beautiful. And I was able to really, hear that and I, it was, it was so appreciated.

[00:37:06] Yeah. . So it's like, yeah, and it's, it still gets sometimes it's like, yeah, I think, I think too, because like I used to be so time blind, like, I mean, still am five years of college. I never made it to a class on time. I'm not even kidding you. Like no joke, like it's like five minutes late for every class, all my entire college.

[00:37:29] Speaker 3: Right. So like, I 

[00:37:29] Eric Tivers LMSW: worked so hard at being able to do it. So like when, when it, like I'm late for something, I'm like, oh, it's, it's, it's kind of all that past stuff that it's associated with all the times of being late and, I do try to also, instead of apologizing, I, I do this more where I say, thank you for your flexibility, or Thank you for your understanding.

[00:37:50] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. I do the same thing. I'm just like, thank you so much, and if they don't like how I'm late at times, then [00:38:00] I, I'm not the one for you. Right. And that's okay. Yeah. And that's okay. I find it very interesting because people wait hours at a doctor's office, but all of a sudden for an LPC or a therapist, it's like, oh, how dare I wait 10 minutes, five minutes?

[00:38:14] I'm like, same thing. we about 

[00:38:15] Eric Tivers LMSW: contractors, like, we'll be there sometime today, maybe tomorrow. 

[00:38:18] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. Yes, exactly. Oh my God. Imagine if we did business like that. 

[00:38:23] tu crees 

[00:38:25] Anita Sandoval LPC: Plumbers, oh, the, internet. It's like, oh, between this time and this time. Yeah. Wait on hold. That is too funny.

[00:38:34] I wanna turn it around to something nicer. where do you feel most accepted as your whole self and why? 

[00:38:41] Speaker 4: Hmm.

[00:38:47] Eric Tivers LMSW: in neurodivergent place, in spaces and in queer spaces. I mean that's, yeah. And especially neurodivergent queer spaces. That's, yeah. Yeah. Are you familiar with the, what it's referred to as a double empathy problem? 

[00:38:59] Anita Sandoval LPC: You [00:39:00] mentioned that, but please talk about it again. 

[00:39:03] Eric Tivers LMSW: So, there's this false belief that people with Autism aren't empathetic, right?

[00:39:09] , we just happen to, to show it differently. 

[00:39:13] Speaker 3: Yes. 

[00:39:13] Eric Tivers LMSW: but what we really see is that the, the problem. Is when someone with Autism and it's not everyone but someone, someone with Autism, , and a neurotypical person, like the inability to adapt towards each other is that is referred to that as the double empathy problem.

[00:39:29] But when you're with other Neurodivergent like other neurodivergent people, there's just this knowing, it's like, it's like this big family reunion of people you've maybe even never met before. Yeah. And it's like they are just like me and it's just, I go to the, and I speak at the, the international ADHD conference every year.

[00:39:48] And I've always loved like just the community aspect of being around so many ADHD'ers 

[00:39:53] Speaker 3: yeah. 

[00:39:53] Eric Tivers LMSW: And then over the last couple of years as I was starting to explore, like, oh wait, do I also maybe have Autism? I was starting to connect with other [00:40:00] AUDHD, people with ADHD and Autism

[00:40:03] and I was much more intentional about it last year and I was like. This is like on another level Yeah. Of like just connecting and feeling understood and, just being seen in a way that's like, 'cause that, and I've, I've been having a lot of conversations about the, the differences lately between, fitting in and acceptance.

[00:40:25] Speaker 3: Okay. 

[00:40:26] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. Like, talk 

[00:40:27] Speaker 3: about that. Like, or 

[00:40:28] Eric Tivers LMSW: not belonging, I'm sorry. Fitting in belonging. Yeah. So like, fitting in is masking. 

[00:40:35] Speaker 3: Yes. Right. We are 

[00:40:35] Eric Tivers LMSW: actually becoming more disconnected from ourselves the more we are, quote unquote fitting in. 

[00:40:40] Speaker 3: Okay. 

[00:40:41] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. 

[00:40:42] Speaker 3: Okay. 

[00:40:42] Eric Tivers LMSW: What we wanna do is belong for who we are without having to, try to be less of who we are or try to be more of something else.

[00:40:51] Yeah. Right. When we can feel that sense of belonging because we're, because we're weird or because we're whatever, like, and people actually like us, [00:41:00] not, not. The spite of it, but Yeah. Because of it. Yeah. Like, and I think that for people who haven't experienced that and then they then have that experience.

[00:41:11] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:41:11] Eric Tivers LMSW: There's kind of this feeling of like, oh my gosh. Like I never wanna go back to the other way again. Like, yes. And I think that's the power of group and community. It's like people often when they come into my program, they'll have to say intellectually understood that group and community supposed to be helpful.

[00:41:28] Yeah. But they'll have to say like, they never really understood it until they were a part of it. Yeah. And the, like, they'll say like, yeah, all the tools and the exercises that we do in group are really helpful. But there's nothing like the community. Like it's, it's like, honestly, everything is secondary to, to community.

[00:41:47] 'cause it's, it's that powerful. 

[00:41:49] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. it's, it's knowing, being around like-minded people. I think even with therapy, high 70, 80% success of therapy is that rapport. Them, just knowing you everything [00:42:00] else, strategies, techniques, and skills. It's like second. Yeah. But it's really the rapport of allowing that non-judgment of being you.

[00:42:09] And, and that's it. And, and I love how you said that, that sense of belonging, I have patients coming in telling me, tell me if you know what's right, what's wrong, what's good, what's bad? And I tell 'em, quite honestly, there's no right or wrong, good or bad.

[00:42:21] There just is what you want. What you need to do to get there. And whatever you do or do not do, there's no judgment. There just is. You, you, your, your state of mind of happiness. And they want me to give them tips for people pleasing because that's what they want. They wanna fit in in a people pleasing society, but yet they come out learning the way I am is perfect, and it's not me that's the problem.

[00:42:49] It's where I'm hanging out with finding the right type of people to see me the way I see myself. It's just unlayering that [00:43:00] artichoke or peeling that onion to really just embrace oneself. 

[00:43:05] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 

[00:43:07] Yeah. You had, you were asking something earlier about, empowerment and then you were talking about resilience and, I think we could all agree that it's, it.

[00:43:15] Being able to be resilient is a very valuable, important Yeah. , skill to develop. 

[00:43:20] Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:43:21] Eric Tivers LMSW: And, and like all I think, trait things can be taken too far. you know, I, I, someone asks me what's my superpower, I often say I'm a lemonade maker. Like I can, I can turn lemons into lemonade. Like, that's, that's what I, I've always been very good at that.

[00:43:39] but now coming out of a, a little bit over a year of what I've now realized was Autistic Burnout. 

[00:43:47] Yeah. recognizing that there's also, I think, something that we can call toxic resilience. 

[00:43:53] Anita Sandoval LPC: Talk to me about that. You mentioned that to me, and I can see that in me because of growing up, of just having everything [00:44:00] together all the time now pushing, no 

[00:44:01] Eric Tivers LMSW: matter what, it's, no matter how tired you're, you're still gonna get, Instead of saying, what? Reaching out to someone saying that deadline that I said I was gonna get, like, it looks like I'm gonna need another couple days. Instead of doing that, you, you stay up all night or you work way harder or you cancel friends with plans, with friends, the things that like are supposed to make our life worth kind of worth living and enjoyable.

[00:44:21] Yeah. You're doing all that because you're so focused on just, meeting the goals, hitting the deadlines, doing the, doing the stuff right. Like it's, and I think that there's, there's always a, gonna be a, a place for sprinting. Like we, it's gonna happen, but sprinting should not be a lifestyle.

[00:44:41] I like that because I, I used to, I used to work like the hours I used to work as I think about this now and I'm like, I, I can't even imagine, dude. I 

[00:44:50] Anita Sandoval LPC: can't. Yeah. Like 

[00:44:51] Eric Tivers LMSW: I used to work 80, 90 hours a week, like Yeah. Yeah. And now I'm like 32 about. 

[00:44:57] Anita Sandoval LPC: I know the feeling,

[00:44:58] Eric Tivers LMSW: like I really wanted to get a podcast [00:45:00] out on Friday.

[00:45:01] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. 

[00:45:02] Eric Tivers LMSW: I didn't, and I didn't bring it home. I wasn't playing. I'm like, all right, it'll have to wait till Monday. Like I'm just, I'm, I'm kind of done with this. Like I'm killing myself to, to do these things. Yeah. Um, yeah. It's good to have goals 'cause it gives you a direction. 

[00:45:16] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:45:16] Eric Tivers LMSW: But like, I think it's one of the values and misnomers about goals.

[00:45:21] You don't have to hit a goal per se. 

[00:45:23] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:45:23] Eric Tivers LMSW: The idea, it gives you focus, otherwise it's just activity and movement. Doesn't matter which way you're going if you don't have a direction. Right. Yeah. If you get there a little bit, it takes you a little bit longer. Fine. Who cares? Like, there's so many things in life that I think we're so hard on ourselves.

[00:45:39] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. 

[00:45:39] Eric Tivers LMSW: Around. And we're things don't need to be as hard as we make them. 

[00:45:44] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes. It's about the journey, not the destination. And this is where in therapy we talk about parts work and their managers, the protector parts and they're so gung-ho on the manager protector parts and firefighters that they [00:46:00] forget their healthy self and we focus on whatever happened to your healthy self.

[00:46:05] Where is it? 'cause that's the one that's supposed to lead. Not the managers. Yeah, not the firefighters. And I have to always be in check with mine. Like whoa, when has healthy self come out? And what is manager trying to protect against which exile? And going through therapy for that. 'cause I know you are a therapist and you can help in therapy 'cause that's different than coaching and the accountability.

[00:46:27] That is different. You can do the ADHD but if you have a past trauma memory, that's where we go to therapy so that it won't be a block or have that toxic resilience. And we can work through that within therapy so that we can circumvent the ADHD symptoms a little easier. 

[00:46:45] Eric Tivers LMSW: I know for me, like my workaholism was birthed when I first got diagnosed with ADHD and started ADHD meds.

[00:46:52] Speaker 5: Yeah. 

[00:46:52] Eric Tivers LMSW: Because like I, I was always a very average student at best. 

[00:46:55] Speaker 5: Yeah. 

[00:46:55] Eric Tivers LMSW: or I would like be in a bit a deep hole, and then I would like do sprints [00:47:00] to put, get myself outta the hole. And I would end up this semesters, like, eh, average ish. Right? 

[00:47:05] Speaker 4: Yeah. 

[00:47:05] Eric Tivers LMSW: but it was always hard for me to maintain that, that, level of intensity.

[00:47:09] And then I started medication. I was like, oh my gosh. Like, I, I can actually like, retain what I just read and I'm not having to reread the same paragraph a hundred times before it finally sinks in. And so I went from being a very, c kind of student to basically mostly A's, and, and, couple B's here and there.

[00:47:26] That success was such a, it was such a drug to me for so long. 

[00:47:32] Speaker 3: Oh, that dopamine rush. Oh. Uh, 'cause I was like, 

[00:47:35] Eric Tivers LMSW: oh, I. I'm not stupid. Like I, I actually can be successful. Like I, I finished grad school with a 4.0 and I also only slept like two hours a night. It was bad. Right. And it's just like, I wish I, I, if I could go back in time, I would've, like, I would've chose to sleep more and do less and be okay with not getting a 4.0.

[00:47:55] Anita Sandoval LPC: , and so for me, because I was born in a toxic household I [00:48:00] got married at 15, 'cause I had a broken home, divorced by 21 as a single mom. I refused to be dependent on a man. And, and my mom was, my mom was addicted to men, men were addicted to little girls.

[00:48:13] And I was like, no, I'm not gonna repeat that cycle. And so I remember. When I went back to school and, I got my GED and, and I was like, I'll live on welfare. I am not living on a man. I got my associate's in one year, the bachelor's the other year of the master's the other year.

[00:48:30] Wow. That's how intent lived on Red Bull and Candy. 'cause that was my self medication, Red Bull 

[00:48:36] Candy. 

[00:48:36] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. Oh my gosh. It was crazy substituting and just doing whatever needed to be done to make sure I made enough money and had enough time for my education to provide for the children, 

[00:48:47] and, I was stuck on that, that it was functional then, but then the switch never turned off. I remember meeting my husband, I'm like, I don't need a man. And we're just friends and I'm [00:49:00] good. I have, I have everything. And he's like, okay. and we just hung out and talked and just allowed me to be me.

[00:49:07] And I remember when he proposed and wanted, he was gonna get a house, I'm like, but I don't wanna live with a man. Like, I'm good where I'm at. And I'm like, I don't want you to tell me what to do. I don't wanna cook and clean and do it. He's like, did I ever ask you to? And he's, I was like, well, no.

[00:49:20] He's like, okay. And I was just like, oh. I go, well I gotta ask my kids because they come first and it's like, go ahead. And of course they loved him. And my son was like, are you gonna be like those mean stepdads on Lifetime, movies? He's like, have I ever treated you like that? He's like, well no.

[00:49:39] And it's like, okay, you can marry him, mom. And so, we got married and to this day, one of the main things of the issues is woman. Ask me for help, let me in, And it was a lot. And I now I call it delegating. And so now I'm like, okay, we need to see what you [00:50:00] can do, what I cannot do. But he knows my toxic resilience.

[00:50:04] At times that if it goes, goes, goes, goes, goes. It's hard to shut off. But he knows the prompts already. And to be like, no, have you noticed this about yourself? And if you continue this, you're gonna burn out? And I'm like, oh, I didn't see that. Thank you for saying that. 

[00:50:19] Eric Tivers LMSW: It's like our stubborn and your toddlers me do it.

[00:50:22] Me do it. 

[00:50:22] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh my gosh, yes. 

[00:50:25] Eric Tivers LMSW: When it's something you clearly like need help on, Yeah. 

[00:50:27] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. And I feel like your community would help that knowing that everybody who, who's gone through that toxic resilience be like, Hey, have you noticed this? 'cause I'm lucky to have my husband, but not everybody has partners.

[00:50:38] And here they can have a community to be like, Hey, have you noticed this behavior, that behavior? Because Neurodivergence can't really see their own of where we're at. By the time I do it, it's too late. 

[00:50:50] Eric Tivers LMSW: It was, honestly, it was my seeing parts of myself and my own community members who were also AUDHD 

[00:50:57] Speaker 3: Okay.

[00:50:58] Eric Tivers LMSW: Was one of the, the big sort of like data [00:51:00] points for me where I was like. I, I think that it's, I have more than just ADHD 'cause I kept relating so much to some of the things that AUDHD, , members were saying. 

[00:51:11] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:51:11] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yeah. And I was like, huh. And I almost wonder at a subconscious level, like, have I been attracting more AUDHD to my community just 'cause of, who I am.

[00:51:21] And it's funny, people who I've talked to who, were following my, my, the podcast for years and like, thought that, I think they thought that I knew I was also Autistic. Yeah. I was like, no. , 'cause like some of the things that I, I talk about with like sensory things and it is. We thought for sure you were Autistic.

[00:51:39] Like, like Oh, I, because I used to think that like the sensory stuff was just the things that the ADHD things that people with ADHD don't really talk about or the community doesn't talk about. 

[00:51:50] Speaker 3: Yes. Like enough. 

[00:51:51] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yes. Like, oh, maybe it's because a lot of the sensory things are actually more Autism than ADHD.

[00:51:57] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes. And that's, I mean, what [00:52:00] you mentioned it and when we were collaborating that 15 minute, first I was like, huh. And then I attended an EMDR in subtle Autism in adults and screeners. And I'm like, oh, that makes a lot more sense. And then, I learned ADHD is an executive functioning issue.

[00:52:19] Autism is a sensory processing issue. And I'm like, oh, 

[00:52:24] Eric Tivers LMSW: definitely a Venn diagram there though. There's that for for sure. 'cause I think like one of the most complex executive functions is actually that social executive function. Oh yeah. To be able to, 'cause so much of that is being able to, , adapt and reprioritize stuff on the fly.

[00:52:42] Like reprioritizing is not necessarily one of our best, , skill sets. And to also have to do that so quickly and to be able, 'cause our task switching, neural networks isn't so good. Which is why if we're interested in stuff, we can focus for hours and hours and hours and hours. 

[00:52:59] Anita Sandoval LPC: [00:53:00] Oh yes.

[00:53:01] That's, yes. 'cause the, the TPN the task positive network and of course the, the default mode network of like, oh, this is all your information, but you gotta focus on this, but all this information, we're just gonna cram it in there while you're trying to do this a, b, C type of deal. And I'm just like, oh my gosh.

[00:53:20] Eric Tivers LMSW: I, I tell people when, when they talk about that, 'cause they like, I never finish anything. 'cause like I'll be working on this and then I'm like, oh yeah, I gotta work on that. Like, stop giving candy to the screaming toddler at the grocery store. Because that's basically every time you, you're working on something and an irrelevant thought gets your attention, and you're like, oh, I gotta go do that.

[00:53:39] Yeah, 

[00:53:39] Speaker 3: yeah. You 

[00:53:40] Eric Tivers LMSW: are reinforcing that mechanism that is, that your brain is sending you these ill-timed, messages. 

[00:53:47] Speaker 4: Yeah. 

[00:53:47] Eric Tivers LMSW: It's like, capture it. Yeah. Right. The thought down, but then stay focused on what you were doing. Don't allow yourself to, to go down the, oh, I gotta do this way. I don't forget it.

[00:53:57] Like, no, write it down now so you don't forget it. Just stay [00:54:00] focused on what you're doing. Yes. 

[00:54:02] Anita Sandoval LPC: I, I write it down. What is my focus? And then I have the timer. You recommended it with a yellow, green and red light. My husband's like, is it on? I'm like, it's on. And so even if I lose. Like I say, squirrel, I just write the word squirrel and then I look at what it is I'm supposed to work on next to the timer, and I get to that.

[00:54:17] And that's the only thing it gets me because forget it. And because I am sensory, I have to put on white noise or the loops I have to shut, shut down some senses so that it doesn't, I don't get overstimulated while, while focusing. but only the task stuff that I don't like. If it's stuff like editing this podcast or anything with my entrepreneur, oh my gosh, I can be there all day and I'm be like, I have kids.

[00:54:42] Oh my gosh, I have kids. 

[00:54:44] Eric Tivers LMSW: Well, I mean, it's in, that's, I've, I've been back to editing my own podcast this last year, but for, the majority of my podcast, I had an editor. 'cause what I found is I enjoyed doing the editing and it would take me 10 hours to edit an episode because I was like doing stuff that I.

[00:54:58] Like, I knew it didn't [00:55:00] matter, but like, it was like, because I can do this, I want to try to do this. Like, I was like, like just trying to get like the, the ideal sort of like sound, , sort of profile for different people's voices. And like, I would, I would like literally go and like listen to it in different environments.

[00:55:16] I would like put it on my car, I would put it on a stereo. I would put it just on my phone. Like, just to try to get that. 'cause I hear lots of things that people don't hear, which is like part of my auditory processing, disorder. So it's like, it has, it does have some advantages. Yeah. But I also am like.

[00:55:32] I'm spending 10 hours doing this. This is not worth my time. Like I, this is not something I should be doing. 

[00:55:37] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. Yeah. I, I totally get it. I have to do a checklist of only the things that I have to do on editing, because then if not, I'll go down that rabbit hole and I'm like, is this necessary? Will it get me more likes?

[00:55:50] If not, then I'm like, no. 'cause then I'll burn out. I will burn out. but I love it. going, so now we've talked about the toxic [00:56:00] resilience 

[00:56:00] Speaker 4: mm-hmm. 

[00:56:00] Anita Sandoval LPC: Burning out. I wanna talk about that whole unmasking and authenticity. How do you define authenticity as a neurodivergent person?

[00:56:13] Eric Tivers LMSW: Hmm. I think it's that old Frank Sinatra song And Do It My Way? 

[00:56:20] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes. Oh, my favorite. 

[00:56:24] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. I, I sometimes will sort of jokingly say that I'm like, proudly unemployable, right? Because like, I, I know, like I know what I'm good at. I know what I'm not, right? Yeah. I know where I need to get support or I need to get help.

[00:56:38] I know, and I know for the things that I need to do. Like, but I need to do stuff that makes sense for my brain. 

[00:56:45] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:56:45] Eric Tivers LMSW: and sort of unapologetically, right? Like, yeah. I remember if I, we talked about this before, but many years ago I was working with an ADHD coach. and I was, one of the things I was struggling with, like this is a common circle with lots of ADHD'ers is returning phone [00:57:00] calls.

[00:57:01] Speaker 3: Oh, yes. 

[00:57:01] Eric Tivers LMSW: And it was just like mad at me and I was so frustrated with myself. I was like, people wanna like, hire me, like why am I not calling them back? Like, and I would think about it and then it was like, or I would forget about it for a day or two. And then I remember like, oh, it's been three days. Oh no.

[00:57:16] And now it's like in this like paralysis of, and you, so, through the, the coaching, we discovered that like, well, I'm really good if, if something is on my calendar, like I'll follow. 

[00:57:26] Speaker 3: Okay. 

[00:57:27] Eric Tivers LMSW: She's like, well put your calls in your calendar. Like, usually like, well what if on your voicemail message you actually tell people to not leave you a message and to schedule a call with you through your website.

[00:57:38] Okay. And so I was, at first I was kind of nervous to do this. 

[00:57:43] Speaker 3: Okay. 

[00:57:43] Eric Tivers LMSW: And, but I ended up doing it and I have not looked back since. 

[00:57:48] Speaker 3: Oh, I like that. 

[00:57:49] Eric Tivers LMSW: It is, it's actually funny. It's one of the, the, the, discovered, I used to think it was like my own, like oppositional stuff, but it was, I understand it more as PDA.

[00:57:58] Speaker 3: Yes. 

[00:57:59] Eric Tivers LMSW: I was one [00:58:00] person that called and left me a message. They're like, I heard your message. I understand that you're probably not gonna call me back. Yeah. Like, but I don't have access to a computer. so here's, here's kinda why I'm calling. If you're coming back, awesome. If not, I totally get it. 

[00:58:13] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[00:58:14] Eric Tivers LMSW: And because I didn't feel like there was this like, expectation.

[00:58:17] Speaker 3: Yes. 

[00:58:17] Eric Tivers LMSW: Where do you think I did it? Right after I heard that message, 

[00:58:20] Speaker 3: call them back a, I called them 

[00:58:21] Eric Tivers LMSW: right back. And I was like, well, that's interesting. And it's those kinds of moments where it's like, we had those. Huh. Why didn't that work? I, I love those moments. I 

[00:58:34] Anita Sandoval LPC: love that. Yes. You learn more about yourself, growth.

[00:58:38] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yep. Stumbling into what works. 

[00:58:40] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. And, and then we're going into the holidays right now, so, expectations. PDA neurodivergence, what sensory or social challenges do you feel would come up during the holidays and how would you manage that or honor that? 

[00:58:56] Eric Tivers LMSW: There's a number of ways I can, , I mean, I, I think of [00:59:00] one is like, how do you feel being around your family?

[00:59:05] Is it like all work and no pleasure? maybe limit amount of time, like, and will people be upset? Maybe? Yeah. But like, is it worth the impact it has on your nervous system to put yourself through that? 

[00:59:20] Speaker 5: Yeah. 

[00:59:20] Eric Tivers LMSW: Right. Like, make, have plans for, for easy outs and for like, have a, a plan for how you're gonna leave something, or go on vacation if you can, or just tell people you're on vacation.

[00:59:31] And then to have a staycation. 

[00:59:32] Anita Sandoval LPC: Staycation, right? Yes. 

[00:59:34] Eric Tivers LMSW: Like the, this, the, the pressure of the holidays I think is so challenging. Yeah. for so many, so many reasons. I know people who, actually will shop all year round just to avoid having to go to the stores during the holidays. Yeah. Which is kind of brilliant, but you gotta be able to have, keep track of who you bought what for?

[00:59:51] Who, like, yeah. Otherwise you're like, all these things that you have in random places. Like, 

[00:59:56] Anita Sandoval LPC: yeah. 

[00:59:57] Eric Tivers LMSW: Oh, who did I get this thing [01:00:00] for? 

[01:00:00] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yes, post-it notes on it, but I have an Excel sheet. That's what I do throughout the year because forget it, I just, I hate shopping, online. I love it. Thank God for online shopping now.

[01:00:09] But it's just like people, ugh. 

[01:00:12] Eric Tivers LMSW: even like with Thanksgiving coming up, something that I've done the last two years, Thanksgiving used to be like my favorite holiday. 

[01:00:19] Anita Sandoval LPC: Mm. My daughter's favorite holiday. 

[01:00:21] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yeah. And, and for it's 'cause it's, it's literally, it's just about food. 

[01:00:24] Anita Sandoval LPC: Yeah. It's 

[01:00:25] Eric Tivers LMSW: nothing else.

[01:00:25] There's no religion involved. Yeah. There's no, like, it's just about food 

[01:00:29] Anita Sandoval LPC: being grateful. Yeah. Right. 

[01:00:31] Eric Tivers LMSW: And like, and. So the, the, the one, the one thing I kind of do miss about my mom is she's a very good cook. Mm-hmm. Uh, and so like, I, I miss the Thanksgiving food, so I would always feel kind of like, since I have, sort of cut contact, every time a holiday comes up where there, historically there was good food.

[01:00:48] I always feel kind of a little bit sad about that. Yeah. when I was kind of going through this, this sort of transition of like spending less time with my family and, to where I'm just like, it's just not worth it to me anymore. 

[01:00:58] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[01:00:58] Eric Tivers LMSW: I, so the last two years [01:01:00] we did, they were, they're not sponsoring us, but Whole Foods Catering for Thanksgiving.

[01:01:03] It could literally cater for two people and it's wonderful. Wow. I truly, because I was just like, you know what? I'm busy with work. Like, I don't like, as much as I like the idea of like having this home cooked meal and like this, I've accepted letting that go. Yeah. And like, we can have a nice meal and eat more than we meant to and enjoy it.

[01:01:23] And I have to cook. 

[01:01:25] Speaker 3: Oh yeah. 

[01:01:27] Eric Tivers LMSW: Or maybe you cook one thing and you get Yeah. It's actually, and that's how I usually I do anything I'm making, like, I'm like dinner, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll make my protein, but then my, my side is something I can just microwave. Yeah. It's like an easy thing. 

[01:01:40] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, look at you being all compromising and negotiating.

[01:01:45] I love that. Yeah. And I think that's what it is. How do you walk away without apology or guilt compromise? What are you willing to do? What are you willing to not do? And how you do one thing is how you do everything. 'cause if you practice that even in food, you can practice that even with family. [01:02:00] 

[01:02:00] Eric Tivers LMSW: Yeah.

[01:02:00] , instead of like, I mean if you're having, if you're hosting 

[01:02:03] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[01:02:03] Eric Tivers LMSW: And the, the amount of dishes that are, it to be done Yeah. 

[01:02:07] Speaker 3: Is 

[01:02:08] Eric Tivers LMSW: just exhausting. 

[01:02:09] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[01:02:09] Eric Tivers LMSW: So what if you get the fancy disposable plates? 

[01:02:12] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[01:02:13] Eric Tivers LMSW: Like, they're brilliant. 'cause it, I, I've seen ones that like, I didn't even realize they were like disposable plates at first.

[01:02:19] Yeah. And it's like. Cleanup is just getting the big garbage bag going around the table and done. Yes. 

[01:02:26] Speaker 3: Like 

[01:02:26] Eric Tivers LMSW: nobody cares about. You're fine. China, I'm sorry. Like, no, 

[01:02:30] Anita Sandoval LPC: it's the food, 

[01:02:32] Eric Tivers LMSW: and when I, when I was married and we, we, registered for stuff, all those crystal glasses, they've literally, I think been used once, 

[01:02:40] Speaker 3: one time.

[01:02:40] Eric Tivers LMSW: All now they're just in my basement in like a padded box. Like, it's, it's silly. It's like, yeah, that's what my grandparents did. Like this isn't important to, to, for a lot of people of my generation. 

[01:02:52] Anita Sandoval LPC: No. 

[01:02:52] Eric Tivers LMSW: Like, we just wanna be together. Yeah. And the cookies our way. 

[01:02:55] Anita Sandoval LPC: Oh, I love this. I want you to tell people where they can [01:03:00] connect to for you.

[01:03:01] What's new, what's coming up. Any recent group themes? Yes. coaching pods, anything that you're excited to share in your c. 

[01:03:09] Eric Tivers LMSW: So, our fall coaching group starts, uh, October 23rd, but we have a registration event on October 9th. 

[01:03:18] and just check. And I even have on my calendar versus actually not even on my website.

[01:03:22] It's an if need be registration event on October 14th. but check the website, ADHD Rewired I always have the dates and everything, all the details. on there, on the coaching group page. check out the podcast. I also have my Adult Study Hall community. Yeah. all of those things to be found at, @ www.adhdrewired.com

[01:03:39] Anita Sandoval LPC: And a quick heads up, usually, I know last part one, I asked you one question that I usually like for my audience to kind of sit in and reflect in with my guest answering. 

[01:03:49] So if all your work was lost, anything that you ever did, yeah. And in three generations they found a letter from you, [01:04:00] what truth would you bestow in this letter to help that family relative continue this path of empowering other women?

[01:04:09] Eric Tivers LMSW: Okay. 

[01:04:10] Anita Sandoval LPC: And if they're neurodivergent, we add that in there. 

[01:04:13] Eric Tivers LMSW: I would say, Don't wait till later to do what you want to do. and don't wait till later to do what you wanna do. And we will regret more of the things you didn't do versus the things you did do, even if it doesn't work out. 

[01:04:30] Yeah. So go after it, take a chance and, any hard failure or hardship that you can think about from your past, the one thing they all have in common is you got through it. 

[01:04:44] Speaker 3: Yeah. 

[01:04:45] Eric Tivers LMSW: Don't be afraid of taking on challenging things. 

[01:04:47] Anita Sandoval LPC: . Thank you for saying that. And to everyone listening, you don't need to shrink to be loved.

[01:04:54] You don't need to mask to be worthy. Your authenticity is not too much because you are [01:05:00] enough. 

[01:05:00] Keep unmasking and keep walking toward the version of you that feels most empowered and real.