People Pleasing and Women’s Gut Problems: The Real Cause (with Dr. Scott Rower, PhD)

Why are so many women struggling with reflux, IBS, bloating, and chronic stomach pain—despite changing diets, taking supplements, and doing “all the right things”?

In this powerful episode, Dr. Scott Rower, PhD—clinical psychologist and founder of Rest and Digest—joins Anita Sandoval LPC-S to reveal the real root cause of women’s gut issues: the gut–brain connection and the hidden impact of chronic stress, overgiving, and people-pleasing.

If you’ve ever wondered why your symptoms flare during stress, why tests come back “normal,” or why your digestion falls apart during burnout… this conversation may completely change the way you see your body.

💡 In This Episode, You’ll Learn:

• Why women are more likely to develop gut problems—especially people-pleasers
• How the sympathetic nervous system shuts down digestion (and what to do about it)
• The difference between functional GI disorders and organic diseases
• The “stress bucket” model and why your symptoms flare on overload
• What GI psychology is—and why most people have never heard of it
• The 3 pillars of digestive healing (medical, diet, and gut-brain regulation)
• Why guilt, perfectionism, and emotional suppression fuel gut symptoms
• How to begin down-regulating your nervous system so your gut can finally heal

🌿 Connect With Dr. Scott Rower

Explore his free resources and gut-brain healing tools:

🔗 Website: www.restanddigest.org

🔗 Insight Timer: https://insighttimer.com/RestAndDigest

🔗 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@RestAndDigestGuide

🔥 Key Moments:

• 00:04:00 — The three pillars of gut healing
• 00:07:00 — Why slowing down feels unsafe to people-pleasers
• 00:14:00 — Sympathetic overdrive and digestive shutdown
• 00:17:00 — The stress-bucket overflow and gut responders
• 00:23:00 — What “disorders of gut–brain interaction” really are
• 00:33:00 — Polyvagal theory and why safety matters for digestion
• 00:39:00 — The truth about resentment, guilt, and chronic symptoms

✨ If You’re a Woman Healing From People-Pleasing…

This episode is for you. Awareness is the first step toward reclaiming your health, your boundaries, and your peace.

✨ Work With Anita & Begin Healing People-Pleasing

Ready to stop overgiving, reclaim your boundaries, and finally honor your emotional and physical energy?

Join my transformational 12-Step People-Pleaser Recovery Group:
 👉 www.anitasandoval.com/support

Explore more ways to work with me, including courses, resources, and community support:
 👉 www.anitasandoval.com

Listen to more empowering conversations on the podcast:
 👉 www.anitasandoval.com/podcast

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome & Episode Intro:Anita introduces the topic of women, people-pleasing, and the gut–mind connection.
• 0:26 Meet Dr. Scott Rower Dr. Rower shares his background in psychology and his personal journey with Crohn’s Disease.
• 2:00 Searching for Answers: Diets, Supplements & Denial His early struggle with symptoms, extreme dieting, and the turning point.
• 4:40 The 3 Pillars of Gut Healing Medical care, diet, and the missing piece—gut-brain regulation.
• 6:00 Control, Anxiety & Overworking Dr. Rower discusses coping types: control, appease, avoid.
• 9:20 Mom Mode, Overgiving & Burnout How motherhood expectations push women into chronic sympathetic activation.
• 14:00 Sympathetic Overdrive Shuts Down Digestion Fight-or-flight dominance, reproductive suppression, and Immune impact.
• 17:00 The Stress-Bucket Overflow Understanding “gut responders,” flares, and why symptoms worsen under load.
• 20:00 Disorders of Gut–Brain Interaction (DGBI) IBS, reflux, and how the gut and brain stop communicating correctly.
• 22:30 Visceral Hypersensitivity Explained Why pain feels real even when tests come back “normal.”
• 28:30 Polyvagal Theory & Felt Safety How vagal tone, co-regulation, and safety influence digestion.
• 33:50 Fight, Flight, Freeze & Fawn How people-pleasing connects to nervous system survival strategies.
• 36:00 Relationships, Narcissistic Partners & Chronic Symptoms Why toxic dynamics worsen gut issues and emotional stress.
• 40:00 What You Can Actually Control Small steps for reducing the internal load and lowering the stress threshold.
• 42:30 Healing Through Awareness & Boundaries Choosing your pain, boundaries, and letting go of over-responsibility.
• 43:50 Where to Find Dr. Rower’s Resources Free guides, Insight Timer courses, and YouTube videos.
• 45:00 Empowered Woman Reflection Dr. Rower’s heartfelt definition of an empowered woman.
• 47:00 Final Legacy Question His message for future generations on emotional permission and healing.

Transcript

People Pleasing and Women’s Gut Problems: The Real Cause (with Dr. Scott Rower, PhD)

[00:00:00] Cedric: what if the real reason you feel sick…

[00:00:03] is because you’ve been living in survival mode for so long

[00:00:07] that your body finally shut down?” 

[00:00:08] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : The third piece of the puzzle, is missing for a lot of people. And that's part of the reason why I'm here. a lot of people don't know that this exists, but the research says if you have the third piece of the puzzle, GI psychology, addressing the gut-brain connection 

[00:00:23] That often is the missing piece to make this all work Synchronistically. 

[00:00:29] Dolores: “What if I told you your constant stomach problems…

[00:00:32] aren’t coming from food at all?” 

[00:00:34] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : if you think about, your nervous system is a bucket, 

[00:00:37] And your bucket, can get filled with stress. And going fast and, and, just taking on, taking on, doing, doing, doing. And the, the level, the water can get, raise higher and higher and higher and at some point it will overfill. And get overloaded dysregulated. For gut responder type person, that's gonna be, then your [00:01:00] weaker link in the chain is gonna be, it's reflux.

[00:01:02] And reflux will kick in. Or for IBS, it'll be IBS or IBSC. If it'll be constipation of IBSD, it'll be diarrhea. 

[00:01:58] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Welcome back to [00:02:00] Empowering Women in Conversations. I'm your host, Anita Sandoval, and today we're diving into a topic that connects so deeply to women who have lived their experiences and lives as people pleasers, constantly overgiving in relationships and feeling the effects not only emotionally.

[00:02:18] Physically,

[00:02:19] . my guest today knows this journey firsthand. Dr. Scott Rower is a clinical.

[00:02:25] Psychologist licensed in Oregon and the founder of Rest and Digest. You can find his work@restanddigest.org on YouTube and rest and Digest guide and on the Insight Timer app. Dr. Rower specializes in the powerful intersection of mental health and digestive health, a field known as GI psychology.

[00:02:49] This is the first I've heard. So when I. Saw this, I had to have him in here in this episode. Women over here who are listening in, because that's the number one symptom I hear we all [00:03:00] complain about is our digestive system. And so what makes this perspective even more impactful is that he speaks not just from professional expertise, but also from personal experience.

[00:03:13] Dr. Rower, thank you for being here today. And, before we dive in. I'd like for you to share a little bit about yourself, your journey, and how you came to focus on the gut mind connection. 

[00:03:26] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Great. Happy to be here. Thank you. Um, this for me, this all started in my twenties. I was in graduate school for clinical psychology and I developed, what I found out to be was, Crohn's Disease, which is a.

[00:03:44] Type of inflammatory bowel disease. can be a severe disease, unfortunately, and I was in my twenties as a lot of people are when you get diagnosed with this type of inflammatory condition. And unfortunately being in my twenties, I was in a bit of a denial [00:04:00] about it and still wanted to party and eat what I wanted to eat, and I really paid the price for that and got humbled over and over until I really took it on.

[00:04:11] for a long time, Anita, I, just went the opposite way and I. I tried to find every supplement, every kind of mind, body exercise, every type of diet I could find. I would overlap these diets and it would just become this completely unlivable kind of thing where I was, couldn't eat nightshades and couldn't eat gluten and couldn't eat dairy, and all that kind of stuff.

[00:04:37] just trying to find stability and trying to kind of heal the natural way. Really dedicated to that for a long time. overlapping too many diets. Well, this one says you can't have that, that, and this one says you can't have that, butternut squash and boiled chicken, and it was not sustainable.

[00:04:52] And for me it's been a very long path. So I'm 43 now, it's been a good number of years that I've had to [00:05:00] figure out how to, Get a sustainable place of remission, which I'm in right now, which is fantastic. And it's been that for a little while now. Wow. And the thing that's been really interesting for me as a psychologist is that I felt I didn't leave any stone unturned and I look, tried to find all the supplements and all the diets and all the things and, needing to also look at the medications as well. 

[00:05:26] Begrudgingly and, for a long time, that I felt I knew the the main gist of what was available. And then it was Six years ago or something. that I just stumbled into. There was this field called GI psychology that I had even as a clinical psychologist, never heard of.

[00:05:47] And I took all these health psychology courses and everything. And that, the technical term for it, if we wanna get fancy, it's called psycho gastroenterology. And Psycho gastroenterology or GI psychology is all about [00:06:00] the, The mind body, the gut-brain connection. 

[00:06:04] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Okay. 

[00:06:04] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : And there's a lot of empirical support of things that are reliably, evidence-based of what can be a, an important piece of the puzzle for many people.

[00:06:14] And I'll just end this little summary here by saying what I've learned firsthand, but then it got. Presented to me when I finally figured if find found this model is that. Really the people that heal the best, whether you have a, a, a disease Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, or if you have the, a much more common, IBS or reflux condition.

[00:06:38] The same thing applies. Okay. It's, and, and the research is that the people that do the best. That stay in remission the longest and are able to get into and stay into remission, are, are treated from a holistic perspective. And that holistic perspective is three different pillars. Okay? First is medical, 

[00:06:57] So it's extremely important that [00:07:00] you are getting assessed and ruling outs. If there is anything that needs to be addressed, if it's, beyond IBS or reflux or something that. 

[00:07:09] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Got it. 

[00:07:10] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : number two would be diet. diet does play a role. It can be a very helpful one. people oftentimes can overdo it and, can really use the help of, evidence-based guidelines or, a GI focused dietician.

[00:07:24] But then oftentimes those two are known and are followed by people. The third piece of the puzzle, is missing for a lot of people. And that's part of the reason why I'm here. a lot of people don't know that this exists, but the research says if you have the third piece of the puzzle, GI psychology, addressing the gut-brain connection 

[00:07:43] That often is the missing piece to make this all work Synchronistically. 

[00:07:49] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Oh, I love how you said that. So you were mentioning the gut mind piece. What was that breaking point for you? The moment you realized your body [00:08:00] was screaming at you, we're done and it connected with your mind? 

[00:08:06] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : what was the moment?

[00:08:06] Well, I think for me, to be real about it is, one thing I would love to get into at some point during a conversation there's fight and flight. Everyone knows about fight and flight, kind of, you were talking about there's also freeze and appease, 

[00:08:19] Yes. And that will certainly be applied to this audience if you're listening to something about people pleasing. 

[00:08:25] so if we simplify this down to three things. there's control types, There's accommodating types and there's avoid types. And we all use a combination of these, 

[00:08:32] But you'll tend to be one. certainly have my people plea stuff. avoid conflict stuff. but I'm more of a control type. Okay. I'm much more prone to anxiety and want for order and control Okay. so for me, how this all clicked is it just put it in my face into a real, can't ignore it thing that all of my excessive need to, accomplish.

[00:08:57] and my propensity for [00:09:00] overworking and all that, like, uh, it wasn't just a little bit of like, I wonder if it's like, no. Alright Scott, this is a clear thing you need to work on. it would be easy to wanna throw more energy into the diets or striving and doing better. And it, it, it really humbled me of all right, this is something that, a lot of this that I make is about helping people to access that downregulation sympathetic response.

[00:09:28] We can get into that. and a lot of the reason why I, I make it is because it's so hard for me to do it. 

[00:09:33] and realistically to do it and make it a big practice, it helps me to teach it. ' cause then I have to walk the talk. But I it also helps people that also struggle to, can know about it.

[00:09:45] We can have the should, but to be able to do it 

[00:09:47] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. 

[00:09:48] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Has its challenges. 

[00:09:50] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: I truly believe in compassion because the body's used to, and I call it, it's an addictive response. What we are just eliciting is neurochemicals when it [00:10:00] comes to emotions. Those neurochemicals go into your system. And so when they're like, oh, I really wanna, you know, be in the parasympathetic nervous system, I really wanna downregulate.

[00:10:11] Yet their system is so used to the stress hormones. It's like a crack addict taking away their crack and giving them, White tea, and 

[00:10:19] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : they're 

[00:10:19] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: this, this junk, you know? And the body's already used to uncomfortable with the chaos that they feel so awkward and unknown with the peace. what do you, what do you do when that happens?

[00:10:33] How do we transition from acknowledging that comfort? The body's already comfortable with that addictive chemical with the stress hormones. How do we start practicing and realizing that awareness that this is just not healthy. And even though our body craves it, it's not something, 'cause you mentioned it, you're oh, I was fighting with it.

[00:10:53] You know, I just kept going, kept going, kept going. 'cause that's what the body's used to. Is it a transition? Is it a one [00:11:00] day to the other? How does this mm-hmm. Work? Mm 

[00:11:03] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : mm , let's put this in specific or practical terms for a second we can Really um, 

[00:11:08] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: digest it. 

[00:11:09] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yes. 

[00:11:10] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: No pun intended.

[00:11:12] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah. Um, so let's, let's like use a hypothetical, like with your audience. Would it be. What would be like a typical thing? Would it be this kind of like, lemme tell you a mom or, yes, go ahead. 

[00:11:25] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. So let's say we have mommy mode and we're okay, we need to make sure we have dinner, but we need to make sure we have, we are a good worker, but I wanna be there for my daughter in the sports activities.

[00:11:35] Mind you, let's add Neurodivergence and their brain is all over the. Place, and we gotta make sure the clothes are clean and we gotta make sure their homework is done. And they take this burden on themselves, not even acknowledging that their partner, male or female is called shared responsibilities. But mommy wants to just take the load and do everything.

[00:11:59] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : [00:12:00] Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:00] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Let's 

[00:12:01] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : use that. Great. Fantastic. Um, so if we were to say just the, current pace of life 

[00:12:09] Is something working against us because it is more and more expected. Was it the surgeon general in LA in 2024 issued a health advisory about parenting.

[00:12:20] very validating as a parent to hear this. parenting these days is not what parenting used to be. Mm-hmm. And parenting used to be, and I think they used the seventies to the eighties as a comparison. It used to be The parents then would, still have a social life, and they would go and hang out with friends or go do their sport or whatever, and the kids would come along and it would be alright, kids, go, go play.

[00:12:45] Go find some kids to play with. Right? And kids would tag along these days, some kind of thing about the expectation of excessive parenting. Now you're the driver. To all the sports. You're supposed to maybe go to the P-T-A-P-T-O meetings.

[00:12:59] [00:13:00] Yes. You're also supposed to make their lunch, make their dinners, make their breakfast Yes. Be their playmates. Yes. Set up play dates. Yes. all it's, it's co-regulate 

[00:13:08] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: with them. 

[00:13:09] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Exactly. Parents are under pressure. All this expectation. Yes. Right? Yes. put that in the ether here, that there's a context.

[00:13:17] It's not just someone is. To people, pleaing and She just needs to wake up and stop, be so people pleasing. That's just an element about that for sure. Yeah. But kind of to come back with, with that noted. Yeah. Um, and, and the empathy factor, to recognize part of what you're saying here is it's familiar for someone.

[00:13:38] that to be in mom mode and to do it all. And do it all. And do it all. And then you can have this, you can hear this podcast and here's this psychologist saying, Hey, if you got IBS and you got this GI stuff, you, you really need to go lay down. Take at least 10 minutes, do this diaphragmatic breath.

[00:13:58] You really should [00:14:00] do this because I know you know well. the reality is. That for a lot of people, myself included, slowing down is quite uncomfortable. for someone with a people pleasing coping mechanism, In its own way, guilt doesn't feel good, but it feels familiar. 

[00:14:20] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. And there's 

[00:14:21] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : a familiarness that in its own way can feel safe, I am, look at me being a good person. Look at me doing it all for me in this being more of the control, anxious type.

[00:14:32] Anxiety doesn't feel good, but it feels safe if, oh, I'm doing everything I should be, look at me accomplishing and doing all this stuff. I'm a good person. Do 

[00:14:40] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: you wanna know what the phrase is that mamas use? 

[00:14:43] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : What's that? 

[00:14:44] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Look at me being productive. 

[00:14:46] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yes, exactly. Look, look how productive. So, exactly.

[00:14:49] So the rest is gonna threaten that. for someone that maybe is predisposed to feeling guilty, they're gonna feel lazy maybe. 

[00:14:58] And they're gonna [00:15:00] feel I'm not. Doing what I should be doing or making excuses or look at that person. They don't need to rest or, 

[00:15:06] And, or that in some way, maybe, I don't know if it, it would even be a belief, but there might be a feeling belief of somehow being a burden. 

[00:15:14] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. And I'm not good enough. It's one of the common ways. Yeah, 

[00:15:17] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : yeah, yeah. So with all that said, to me it's much more about. awareness. Okay. And validation of like, there's in the, what's called the autonomic nervous system. 

[00:15:30] Okay. 

[00:15:31] Which is autonomic, automatic, all the things that you don't, consciously. Have to think about controlling your heartbeat, your blood pressure, digestion, 

[00:15:40] You don't have to will yourself to digest. Those are all covered by the autonomic nervous system, and the autonomic nervous system has three different parts. There's the sympathetic fight and flight gas pedal, there's the parasympathetic brake pedal, rest and digest. And then important for us, there's also what's called the enteric [00:16:00] nervous system, which is the separate 

[00:16:02] Some people call it the second brain, which is, really the, when we talk about there's a, Brain, gut, brain connection. That's what the gut is essentially. It's this, it's this, humongous, vast, array of, nerves that are, Lining the whole intestinal tract and there's more nerves. There's hundreds of millions of nerves.

[00:16:25] There are more nerves lining your digestive tract that there are in your spinal cord. Oh my God. And it's the only, yeah, it's, it's this amazing thing that and it's the only separate part of the nervous system that can function on its own. Everything else needs the brain to direct it. This enteric nervous system that drives digestion is its own separate.

[00:16:45] Brain in a way. And 

[00:16:46] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: gut instinct. those 

[00:16:47] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : two really is a big Exactly. Gut instinct, And butterflies in my, in my stomach, you know, I didn't have a gut, gut feeling about that. All that, all those frameworks of, of speech are implicitly pointing to this [00:17:00] thing. in any case, with those things defined, Being in mom mode, being productive, being doing it all You get into what's called the sympathetic dominant place where it's very comfortable and yeah, familiar for you to be hitting the gas pedal all the time, but that's going to directly, impair your ability to digest.

[00:17:23] And also your, so you think about your digestive system, but also your reproductive system and your immune system are not. needed for immediate survival. Right? And so that's what that sympathetic nervous system is all about. The immediate survival. So you're impairing at a base level, your ability to digest and, your immune system, your reproductive system as well.

[00:17:46] And so when we don't slow down, when we don't rest, that gets impaired. And, but to your point, right, we could say. All day long what you really should. take, 10 minutes, or at the end of the day, [00:18:00] slow down Take some time for yourself. But the reality is that's going to be for a lot of people, emotionally uncomfortable.

[00:18:07] Right. Yes. They're gonna have a stimulation withdrawal. They're gonna wanna be on their phone at least. Right? Right. So it's hard. You need a, it's hard. Yes. You 

[00:18:15] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: need a hit of something. Yes, exactly. yes. And one of the things I tell my patients, how do we know sympathetic or parasympathetic s equal?

[00:18:23] Stress, P equals peace. So am I stressed out? That's sympathetic, am I in peace? Then that's parasympathetic. And what happens when we're stressed out, the blood vessels constrict, and where does the blood go in the muscles for fighting or for running away, which is in the arms and the limbs.

[00:18:42] So we don't need the stomach to survive, And That's why usually it's the first. Thing to really get dysregulated because we don't need blood to flow there. And what happens when we constrict something and squeeze the blood out of it and it starts breaking down, you're not [00:19:00] giving it enough oxygen and blood flow.

[00:19:03] Mm-hmm. if they're comfortable with this stress, they're comfortable with being not having that blood flow, what would be a baby stop of awareness for them?

[00:19:15] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : So in this example, would this person also be struggling with GI stuff or, oh, for sure. Do you wanna keep it more? For sure. 

[00:19:22] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: so most of my, my audience here, it's, reflux. It's, diverticulitis it is, oh, IBS for sure, whether it's IBS or IBSC. Mm-hmm. It's usually any one of those as well. 

[00:19:39] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Okay, cool. So it's helpful to put this in context then, anyone that, is experiencing those things is probably what's called a gut responder. a gut responder is someone that, if you push someone, if you think about, your nervous system is a bucket, 

[00:19:56] And your bucket, can get filled with [00:20:00] stress. And going fast and, and, just taking on, taking on, doing, doing, doing. And the, the level, the water can get, raise higher and higher and higher and at some point it will overfill. And get overloaded dysregulated. For gut responder type person, that's gonna be, then your weaker link in the chain is gonna be, it's reflux.

[00:20:20] And reflux will kick in. Or for IBS, it'll be IBS or IBSC. If it'll be constipation of IBSD, it'll be diarrhea. That, whoa. Your, your. Stereotypical symptoms, your physical symptoms will, will kick in when that bucket's overflowing. Two important things to know about the bucket is your, the bucket is your nervous system.

[00:20:42] Is you can, expand or contract the size of the bucket. It's not set And so if you think about. Sleep is one of the biggest factors, If you, everyone knows what it's to sleep really well and then not sleep well and have a really crap, not much buffer, And everyone, you're a little [00:21:00] irritable.

[00:21:00] Things get to you more. That bucket is. Much smaller at that point, And so you have two levers to think about here. You can increase and decrease the size of the bucket, 

[00:21:09] What's called the window of tolerance, okay? Um, or you can be focusing on how much water is coming into the bucket. All that to say that there's, there are gut responders, but you, this applies to everyone else as well. if you're not a gut responder, maybe you get migraines. Maybe you get headaches. Maybe that's where the, the bucket overflows for you. Maybe your skin breaks out. Maybe that's where your, you know, your bucket overflows.

[00:21:35] or inflammation, 

[00:21:36] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Joint pain. 

[00:21:38] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Exactly. Everyone will have some way in which physically, um, the, the overflowing, the dysregulation of the nerve system is gonna affect them. And that's, that's their flashing sign. That hey, this is not, something needs to change.

[00:21:53] cause if you push through it, it's not gonna go well. And so let's just talk about the, gut [00:22:00] responders. 

[00:22:00] Uh, so we'll talk about IBS the most common. And reflux also is, is quite common Reflux. So 

[00:22:06] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: common gastritis and reflux are top, beginners. And then after the, after that, then I see the IBS and DIverticulitis, I feel it's increasing, increasing and getting worse and worse when it's not being paid attention to.

[00:22:18] And so might has started as reflux or gastritis maybe in their twenties or. Teenage years and then by the time they're thirties and forties it just exasperated into something that it's not manageable and they can barely leave the house. So that's from what I see. 

[00:22:35] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : And so that, that exactly speaks something that's really important and helpful to know about.

[00:22:41] Specifically what we're let's say there's two main topics here we're talking about. There's GI issues and then there's what'll just say called stress. And we can, you can have the, the stress be focused as, as people pleasing, The, the, the struggle of managing guilt and, and also the, the, the darker side that probably don't wanna [00:23:00] acknowledge, which is resentment, 

[00:23:01] right?

[00:23:02] Of being, 

[00:23:02] of giving away and doing, doing all the time, right? Yeah. But in any case, that's, we'll just call that stress. Right. Okay. so there's the external stressors of, of parenting or doing or work or. Conflict and relationships. And then there's the internal stress of the The emotional, You know, navigation of all that. And the other side, let's say there's the physical manifestation that the GI issues. 

[00:23:23] So on the GI issue side, it's important to recognize that there's two different types of GI issues. two main classes. There's what have been called functional GI disorders.

[00:23:35] Um, and then there's like, what's called organic diseases, what I have, Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis. 

[00:23:41] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Mm-hmm. 

[00:23:42] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : gastroesophageal Reflux disease. GERD is also within this. Yes, 

[00:23:46] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: yes. Good. 

[00:23:48] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : But the, the thing to note, let's stay with the first group, what has been called, functional GI disorders.

[00:23:55] how many years, nine years ago I think they've officially updated the term of this, and it's [00:24:00] called, a mouthful, but it's a useful term to know. It's called Disorders of the Gut Brain Interaction. So IBS is a disorder of the gut brainin interaction, DGBI. And it's a really useful thing to know because that is speaking to what is the, what is the mechanism.

[00:24:18] You wanna know what the mechanism here is. Yes. Right. And so the mechanism is a dysregulation between the gut and the brain. 

[00:24:26] Mm-hmm. 

[00:24:26] And so, going back to the bucket metaphor, A lot of people with IBS will, there'll be something that initially. Started the IBS process to begin with. overflowed.

[00:24:38] There's a big splash into the bucket and overflowed and Yes. And IBS started, So let's say, um, food poisoning. You know, or bad infection. Or maybe you're like. Family member died and you were like moving. Also like huge life events, all, you know, overloading the system.

[00:24:57] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Holidays, there's a number 

[00:24:58] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : of things. Holidays. [00:25:00] coming 

[00:25:00] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: around the corner. Just saying, I'm feeling it already. Holidays. 

[00:25:04] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : If you stack enough things, psychologically or physically, it can tip you over. IBS is a very common thing to get tipped into. initial and maybe excessive antibiotic use.

[00:25:16] There's a lot of things that can tip you into this process. But the thing that's more important to recognize is there's what started. This isn't usually what keeps it going. So what keeps it going is what's called gut-brain dysregulation. 

[00:25:32] And so gut-brain dysregulation there are like.

[00:25:37] four main kind of factors of what keeps us going. It's really helpful and important for people to understand if, if this is not just a little passing thing, if this is really an issue for you, and it's getting in the way of your life to really understand what are these, factors of gut brain dysregulation, and I'll just say them a, a bunch of them briefly, the most common ones.

[00:25:57] So let's say you're, you're a typical [00:26:00] person with, with I-B-S-I-B-S is a pain condition. 

[00:26:03] So, the, I, three months of, pain. Abdominal pain. That usually is correlated to bowel movements.

[00:26:12] Either it makes it worse or it makes it better. 

[00:26:14] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: and there's, there's these changes in motility, too much constipation, too much diarrhea or alternating between the two of them. But usually it's a combination of abdominal pain plus that Yes. Uh, for, for a long enough period of time.

[00:26:27] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yes. 

[00:26:28] if you don't have pain, it's, you're still within a disorder of a gut brain interaction. It's just not technically the IBS, but it's the same stuff applies. When that happens and you're, you're, you get shifted into that place of your gut brain connection is dysregulated, the gut and the brain, they're 

[00:26:44] they're, they're, they're having a conversation all the time. It's they're on a, talking on their, on their phones and the signal goes bad and they can't hear each other that well. And the signals get distorted. They get amplified. The conversation is not clear. And regulated [00:27:00] anymore.

[00:27:00] Yeah. Right. And so when the brain can't talk to the enteric nervous system, the gut well, and the other way around, then these signals get distorted. And one of the, um. Very practical, important ways to note what that pain is about. The pain is almost always called, based on something called visceral hypersensitivity.

[00:27:22] if you think about IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. it's a syndrome, meaning it's not a disease, it's a collection of symptoms that are caused by many different things. Okay. and one of the main things that's caused by is this visceral hypersensitivity. the irritable in irritable bowel syndrome is pointing to the nerves.

[00:27:42] The nerves in the enteric nervous system. The nerves in the, the lining of the GI tract in the intestines have become more irritable. They've been sensitized. And when you feel the pain, you know, especially pain that gets worse or better with, a bowel movement. [00:28:00] What's happening there is those, there's nothing physically wrong.

[00:28:04] There's nothing usually, um, pain signals danger. Oh, oh crap. What's wrong? Am I, are they mi Have they missed something? These tests come back and they say, nothing's wrong, but I feel this pain. What's actually is something wrong with me? 

[00:28:17] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: That's the common what they tell me. 

[00:28:19] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Text.

[00:28:19] Exactly. And they feel this often. People feel 

[00:28:22] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: like, I'm not crazy. Am I crazy dismissed? Is it in my head? Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. 

[00:28:27] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : And so those nerves have become hypersensitive and understanding that's what's actually going on. There's a, there's ways to work with that and then regulate the find ways to 

[00:28:39] Come back and regulate the brain gut connect, uh, 

[00:28:42] the system. Gut 

[00:28:43] brain connection. Sorry. 

[00:28:44] and I'll say a couple other factors real quick. So we have visceral hypersensitivity. That's a change that physical, real measurable change that happens in the digestive system in the the digestive tract.

[00:28:57] the change in motility, as we also said, that is. [00:29:00] A factor of gut brainin dysregulation. On the brain side. There are these changes that happen functionally where usually, you know, if you're listening to this podcast, and maybe you have jewelry on, maybe you probably, I. Until I said these words, you probably didn't notice the weight, the feel, the contact of the jewelry on your skin.

[00:29:22] But now if you notice it, you can feel it. I can feel my rings on my hand now, but before that, it was filtered out. 

[00:29:29] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. 

[00:29:30] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : And so for people with gut dysregulation, we start to lose the ability to filter out gut signals. And so it's on our mind more. We start to pay attention to it more when normally, there's a lot moving through.

[00:29:43] There's gas and food moving through our system all the time. There's a lot of signals coming through. Normally we don't even, it's not even in our conscious awareness, but because it's not being filtered out, it's on, uh, we're experiencing it more. And I'll say the last. thing. There's also a change in [00:30:00] our mental, emotional behavioral patterns.

[00:30:02] Okay. So it's much easier to start to get anxious. 

[00:30:05] It's much easier to get hypervigilant to really be scanning the body a lot more. Okay. It's a lot easier to start to catastrophize of how bad this is gonna be. 'cause a lot of this stuff is unpredictable. Unpredictability and uncertainty is fuel for anxiety.

[00:30:21] Yeah. It, we get to start to catastrophize how bad it's gonna be, and then you can start to avoid and cancel plans. And then that starts this really vicious cycle of avoiding, and then it, it gets, it can, gets really amplified from there. 

[00:30:35] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Wow. And it keeps the momentum going with the stress chemicals. 

[00:30:39] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yes.

[00:30:40] And, 

[00:30:40] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: and we need a disrupt to go from, from, sympathetic to para. 

[00:30:47] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Exactly. 

[00:30:48] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: And you mentioned polyvagal. Can you, can you tell the audience and the listeners what is polyvagal and how does this help do that disrupt within the system? [00:31:00] 

[00:31:00] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Oh, Anita, um, I, oh. I am gonna really try to not geek too hard here. I'm gonna try and like keep, um, 

[00:31:08] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: don't worry, I add visuals, so don't worry.

[00:31:10] I had Oh, really? Awesome. Yes. Okay. This is video recorded and also audio, but I add visuals here. So for those of you that are listening, very cool. Look at the YouTube. I'm adding visuals. 

[00:31:20] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Very cool. Okay, well, . know not everyone is geeky as us about this stuff, so I'll try and keep it simple.

[00:31:25] And then I know you know a lot about this, so I will just, I'll keep it sparse and, and you join in where you think would be good to expand. Okay. 

[00:31:32] So. 

[00:31:34] Um, polyvagal theory, is a, a, a framework, it's an evolutionary hypothesis that we have the, the vagus nerve in a polyvagal.

[00:31:46] Uh, the vagus nerve is the main highway that acts that we are stimulating and accessing to be able to shift into rest and digest, downregulate safety, [00:32:00] calm mode. And a lot of people with IBS and a lot of these other disorders, have what's called low vagal tone are the strength of our vagus nerve. It's called like the vagal break.

[00:32:11] The ability to break and slow down is, just like exercising muscles when you don't use something, it becomes weak over time. It's a lot of hypotheses about that. There's a lot of different perspectives about that, but that's the gist of things.

[00:32:25] And so polyvagal theory is an interesting thing that branches out a little bit further and it talks about, that us humans, we are not. that fast of an animal, we are not that fierce of an animal. We don't have, our teeth are not that sharp. We don't have sharp claws. We are weak and slow and vulnerable as animals.

[00:32:49] Right. But strangely, we've taken over the world and we've dominated. We are the apex predator. And how is that the case, because we [00:33:00] are. Have extremely, sophisticated ways of co-regulating, connecting with other people and banding together as a tribe. 

[00:33:11] And so in some ways there is a, Darwinian evolution of the survival of the fittest.

[00:33:16] That does maybe make sense for birds, but. For people, where our strength is not our ability to run and fight as much. It's to band together, to, coordinate to, our ability to have language, our, now I'm getting a little geeky. Uh, we, I'll just say our ability to do all that stuff has really excelled us, 

[00:33:36] And so, uh, the.

[00:33:41] Natural ability to connect and co-regulate. In an ideal world, it would be safe to be vulnerable. To be open to have emotional needs and you would be in this, what's called the ventral [00:34:00] vagal mode. This kind of safe to nurture and be nurtured. And co-regulate and everything isn't okay.

[00:34:06] I'm really having a hard time with the holidays and everything that's going on with the planning and I'm not Okay. be able to be vulnerable. and I have been saying yes and I don't even wanna acknowledge it, but I'm feeling really frigging resentful that they keep doing this and, and just to be, and that we really can then process a lot of our internal tension and emotions that way.

[00:34:30] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. for women out there, polyvagal is this primitive nerve that we have, and it's the, highway from the gut to the mind, and it's the easy access. when there's stress, there's a congestion there.

[00:34:45] And using the polyvagal, it's a quick reset. to downregulate your nervous system using exercises that are specific within the polyvagal system. So I know people talk about [00:35:00] sympathetic system and parasympathetic nervous system, but when you hit the polyvagal system, that can really help you regulate and that's what, I heard is that's our superpower that we do have.

[00:35:15] Is that we can be able to shift from a state of distress to a state of relief. We really just need to know how and not get addicted to those stress hormones. 

[00:35:28] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah, exactly. Right. And so that's the ideal is what's called ventral vagal, co-regulate, connect, vulnerability, openness, and all that stuff.

[00:35:37] That's, that's, that ultimately is the ideal because that is a place where I don't have it all together. 

[00:35:43] Yeah. 

[00:35:44] I can feel safe in just being a human and being stressed, being dysregulated, and that actually helps me work through it better. That's, that's what therapy can be really helpful for, is helping people access and understand what is that place of being [00:36:00] safe when everything isn't okay.

[00:36:03] And to actually have the capacity to process the feelings that are going on underneath all that stuff. But in reality, knowing that is a place where it's quite useful and positive and regulating for the gut-brain connection. Because when safety is there, that's when the vagus nerve gets more active and parasympathetic and you kind of get out of the way of digestion all.

[00:36:26] Working properly, but to put this in realistic perspectives, That's the, if we're, say there's three zones, There's the top of the zone. we might have a visual for this maybe. 

[00:36:34] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. 

[00:36:35] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : There's the top visual of, this green zone of safe safety, 

[00:36:41] Felt sense of safety. 

[00:36:43] Below that though, is what's called the sympathetic nervous system, which we've been talking about already. It's fight or flights and we can, I dunno what you call it, I dunno what your visual will be, but something a yellow, orange 

[00:36:54] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: zone. I think of it a street light.

[00:36:55] You know green. Yes, exactly. Yellow. 

[00:36:56] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Right. And that is, um, this go, [00:37:00] go, go mom mode, as you were saying before productivity mode. Do. Do, do, do go, go, go. All that stuff, 

[00:37:05] no one can sustain that chronically, You're gonna start to have health problems.

[00:37:10] You're gonna start to have relationship problems, you're gonna have 

[00:37:13] that 

[00:37:13] stuff. And then at some point, a lot of people then will. Start to burn out and then go into what's called the dorsal vagal. This shut 

[00:37:24] Hypo arousal, exactly. So it's kind of numbing out, 

[00:37:28] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: dis checking out.

[00:37:30] Yeah. 

[00:37:30] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Escaping, disengaging. Numbing. Because the, the, the pace of it is just. not bearable to live in that constantly. if you can't find your way up to safety, oftentimes, this is the zone of depression and checking out and hopelessness and helplessness and all that 

[00:37:47] Yes. And so there's those three different levels of where a nervous system can be. And certainly, the middle or the bottom, you're gonna have, It's very common to have GI issues. [00:38:00] if someone is struggling with anxiety or depression, they're much more likely to have GI issues.

[00:38:05] At the same time, if you have GI issues, you're much more likely to have anxiety and depression. And it's easy to get stuck in any of those two different modes. 

[00:38:13] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Let me ask you this, 'cause this is common in people pleasers the bread and butter of people pleasers are narcissists and they come to me wanting to heal, but still stay in the relationship.

[00:38:24] With a toxic person. 

[00:38:26] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Hmm. 

[00:38:27] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: What is your advice to that? 

[00:38:30] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : let me understand this a little bit more. in what you often see is there's someone coming to you and saying, Hey, this is just not going well. I'm. Stressed out. I'm anxious. My health is paying the price. Yes. And this person is just deflective, defensive, dismissive.

[00:38:50] It's all about them. They don't want to hear it. That kind of thing. I do so 

[00:38:54] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: much and always give, give, give. They still want me to sacrifice, to show my love. They're out there or [00:39:00] gala venting around. They're out there drinking. They're out there not doing their shared roles, and I still give enough. Enough enough, and it's never enough.

[00:39:08] and I have all these issues, GI issues, and they want me to help them be calm, but they still want to stay in that toxic relationship. What is a realistic advice I can tell them? 

[00:39:22] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah. My perspective, and I'm sure you have a lot to say on this, my perspective is,

[00:39:30] it's, it's understandable, It's easy on the outside to say, Hey, this person's toxic. This person's a narcissist. You don't, you deserve better. But it, that's not real life, Everyone has flaws. and part of the, the, the, the beauty and the advantage of someone that is self-sacrificing is that's their default.

[00:39:46] They, they tend to be a little bit more over accommodating. Yes. 

[00:39:48] Right? They, they will tend to. Attract, right? Yeah. The other side. Yeah. And, and part of the beauty of this is that those people tend to be pretty empathic [00:40:00] people, There's certainly, there's a self-sacrificing out of feeling guilty and not wanting to feel.

[00:40:07] You know, selfish themselves and all that kind of stuff. 

[00:40:10] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes, yes. 

[00:40:11] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : But at the same time, they often have a lot of empathy and a lot of times what I've seen is these people that are in relationship to a narcissistically defended person is they, they see the little boy inside. 

[00:40:23] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: They do. 

[00:40:23] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Right. They see what that narcissistic defense is really covering over 

[00:40:29] That maybe no one else sees, or really no one else knows. And so they selectively see the good in that person. 

[00:40:34] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. 

[00:40:35] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : But, but unrealistically into their own, you know, this hope that maybe 

[00:40:39] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Yeah. And, and 

[00:40:42] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : if I could show him love enough Or her Yes. And then, and then I can help them, you know, be themselves and be, you know, all this kind of stuff.

[00:40:51] But it's excessively taking responsibility Yeah. Right. For the other person. Yeah. Right. And so what I would say is, [00:41:00] and, and if, if, if they're coming and saying, you know what, I'm leaving them. I don't, I dunno if I've, if I wanna leave them or not, but this is, I, I'm stressed out.

[00:41:08] This is taking its toll on me. Yeah. Something's gotta change. 

[00:41:11] Yeah. 

[00:41:12] What I would framework would be to me and you, this is, we're talking about therapy, this is confidential, nothing's gonna leave this room. Yeah. And that, let's get real and let's get honest here.

[00:41:23] Yeah. That you're pissed off, there's, there's, if there're talking about these. Things, in this way there's at least some degree of resentment that has built up. 

[00:41:35] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes, for sure. Yes. 

[00:41:36] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : And a lot of times that's a, that's a dangerous and uncomfortable emotion for people.

[00:41:42] Definitely. because anger is scary. And anger might lead to conflict and or maybe anger gets stuffed and stuffed and stuffed until it blows up. And so they don't have a relationship. With healthy anger or if they've seen. Maybe [00:42:00] their mom or their dad growing up was angry all the time.

[00:42:02] And they had this fear about I don't wanna be an angry person. 

[00:42:05] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Or their mom was always a people pleaser and you couldn't show anger. We have to be appeasing at all times. Exactly. Exactly. And it's selfish and we're bad if we even show anger. Exactly. And it's working with, with that mindset.

[00:42:18] In the beginning of okay, well we can't fix this, but what can we fix? What can we control? And giving them that space of knowing what they can control to release at least 5% or 10% of that pressure that is holding in their gut or in their system. 

[00:42:35] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Exactly. 

[00:42:36] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Wow. 

[00:42:37] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah. So if you process that guilt, if you process that resentment.

[00:42:40] you got it. Exactly. That, that would be, and that's actually coming back to the bucket metaphor here. That's actually really important to remember here. There's a threshold, There's a threshold of if you, get above, if your stress levels, if above this threshold and you start to overflow, then your symptoms kick in, and then you [00:43:00] start this.

[00:43:01] All this gut-brain dysregulation stuff about the nerves get sensitive and then that sensitivity starts as vicious cycle and you get stuck in the cycle, Our job, thankfully. Realistically as humans is that you don't have to cure this stuff. You don't have to have the perfect diet. You don't have to have the perfect relationship.

[00:43:17] Yes, you don't have to be sleeping, you know, the perfect, and do your meditation every morning and eat the right diet and only egg white, whatever the thing is at the moment. That you just need to get below the threshold. 

[00:43:28] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yes. You 

[00:43:28] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : just need to get drop below and your body can do it 

[00:43:31] Your body wants to digest and be regulated. Yes. We just don't need to get out of the way enough. Yes. Below that threshold. And if just like you're saying, if you can process and turn towards that guilt, work with these underlying feelings, um. Process and work with this, um, anger, resentment, or fear of anger or resentment, that is a oftentimes a big chunk of what can get you below that threshold.

[00:43:58] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Mm. I love that. And [00:44:00] one of the common things I always tell them is choose your pain. How much pain are you willing to endure? And let's look and explore that pain. and that's the threshold we start working on. It's okay, this pain or this pain, where can we work on? Mm-hmm. And so I love how you said that.

[00:44:15] And, um, Dr. Rower this has been such an eye-opening conversation and I know many women here are realizing whoa, people pleasing really has a lot of these, gut issues. And before we wrap up, I'd love for you to share where listeners can connect with you, learn more about your work and access your resources.

[00:44:37] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Probably the easiest place would just be to go to www.restanddigest.org. Okay. So it's. Rest and digest spelled out.org. Um, I'm also have some stuff on Insight Timer, which is a popular meditation app. There's a lot more than just meditation, but there's a course on there that helps you understand the GI stress cycle, which is stress starts vicious [00:45:00] cycle that often keeps people stuck with GI issues.

[00:45:03] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: And I'll put these in the show notes, so don't worry. You don't have to be like where, what it's gonna be in the show notes. And for those of you that want to learn more, Dr. Rower does have a free resource called The Beginner's Guide to the Gut-Brain Connection. And in there you'll discover why stress and anxiety can flare your symptoms.

[00:45:20] The three pillars, as he discussed earlier previously of digestive healing. And how to activate your body's natural rest and digest mode. It can also grab it@restanddigest.org. I will provide that in the show notes and so.

[00:45:37] Usually before I finish, I always like to ask my guests, a couple of questions just so that my listeners could just get a little bit more of insight from your brain. my question to you is, what is your definition of an empowered woman? 

[00:45:55] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : What's an empowered woman? I can't help but be a little sappy here. [00:46:00] I, my wife, I think would be a fantastic version, of an empowered woman. and I just love her so much because she, little, little brag about my wife. She was a figure skater, Canadian national champion, figure skater earlier in her life, and.

[00:46:19] That, was a really amazing thing for her. She had to travel the world. She was on Disney, on Ice, and did a lot of amazing things with that. But as you can imagine, similar to gymnastics, there's a lot of very toxic things in that community. eating disorders are not only encouraged, they're pretty much demanded.

[00:46:37] Wow. Um, and she has done so much healing. And, she has this amazing capacity to be this badass that's up at six o'clock in the morning, working out most days. She has to try and not work out is her thing, but that she, that's easy for her, is to focus on physical fitness and all that [00:47:00] stuff.

[00:47:00] Really, I've seen so much. Vulnerability. and her working through a lot of anxiety and fear in her path to becoming a mom. and not knowing if she was going to have what it takes to be a loving, nurturing mom. And Anita, she kills it. her and my daughter are Bonded. I'm often the third wheel.

[00:47:21] It's she doesn't want daddy around. She wants mommy time and she's, this is not a 2-year-old, She's yeah, 

[00:47:27] um, she's seven now and she's her. I love my, the empowered woman in my mind as someone that is, has the capacity to be bold and assertive when needed, but also have this flexibility of being.

[00:47:43] Loving and nurturing and, and something that women are so, much more evolved 

[00:47:49] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. 

[00:47:49] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : In, in being able to do, 

[00:47:51] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: And be vulnerable to know your, your flaws, but be compassionate towards it, to heal from it. That is beautiful. Thank you. [00:48:00] And my second question, let's assume in the future, everything, your work, your, your legacy that you've been working on was lost by your family due to unforeseen event.

[00:48:12] And one day within the future by three family generations within your woman, the, your daughter's lineage, they're found one handwritten letter. To your future. Great-great-great granddaughter, what truth would you want to bestow on her to inspire other women to continue empowering one another? 

[00:48:34] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Oh my gosh, these are deep questions.

[00:48:37] Um, all right, so what would I, if I could leave just one letter behind for future generations especially? Yeah, 

[00:48:45] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: your great, great granddaughter. 

[00:48:47] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah.

[00:48:48] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Let me think here. So in, in 

[00:48:50] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : these, they, it feels kind of hallmarky, but um, I love 

[00:48:54] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: it. I'm very sappy, so go for it.

[00:48:56] Us, my women audience are very Hello. We're people pleasers? We're very [00:49:00] Sapp. 

[00:49:00] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Yeah. 

[00:49:00] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:49:01] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : I'll say from, from, from a man 

[00:49:05] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: mm-hmm. 

[00:49:06] Dr. Scott Rower, PhD. : Especially that, as a man that works with people, um, professionally heal. the thing that I would really want the future lineage, future generations to, to, to know and to have, would be.

[00:49:24] Just to, to understand the importance of the, the permission to feel. because it is so easy to cover over and go fast and be distracted, and we have so much intelligence. but it's also the place where, it's tender, it's vulnerable, And I would just hope that people. Future and, my, my, my daughters daughters and all that would have just the recognition and knowing the, the power and the importance of the [00:50:00] permission to feel.

[00:50:01] Anita Sandoval LPC-S: Thank you for that. even for us audience have that permission to feel. Being numbed out, disengaged and not even allowing that space for us to feel what we feel and be okay with that, whether it be resentment or anger or stress. So thank you for saying that. Thank you to all the listeners for showing up for yourself in this space, because every time you choose awareness.

[00:50:23] You're choosing empowerment. Thank you, Dr. Rower, for sharing your wisdom here, allowing us to know that our gut isn't just about food, it's about boundaries. Stress, how much we give ourselves away, and how much we can actually heal just within ourselves by downregulating and allowing space to just be us.

[00:50:43] And, until next time, . Stay safe, be well. And remember, your voice matters. Your boundaries matter, and you matter. 

[00:50:49]